How to execute a complete SaaS company pivot in ONE DAY

You have to say no and you have to if there's a feature request, you have to look into it in a way that it works for everyone and not for this sole client. The B2B mid-market, especially in Germany, is like it's A, it's a huge sector. They B, they are like under digitized, like in a way under digitized and the big companies are not really looking into them. I like that because you control more the direction and the pace. I prefer to focus on rather the sustainability of the business and the customer value over this growth at any cost.

Hey there, welcome to episode number seven, I believe. I'm SaaS Unbound of this new season and today with me is Simon from entitys.io. And let's unpack what you guys are doing. Welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thanks for having me, Anna.

Sure, absolutely. So, I mean, I obviously was doing my research and I landed on this product data operating system. So, you know, I feel like everything I read about entitys and what you're doing and the problem you're solving, it's a problem that so many founders are trying to solve, have been trying to solve is the fact that we have all this data scattered. I mean, there is so many memes around on the internet, how marketers would love all the data to be in one place and be the same and show the same numbers, but it's all scattered and we need to make sense out of it. So, you know, it's kind of like something what you were doing as well. But I would love to dive a little deeper and, you know, figure out who are the customers that you are making happy with, you know, bringing the data to them. But before we do that, maybe a little bit about your background and how you landed here.

Sure. Yeah, I mean, I'm a German citizen, I grew up next to Düsseldorf and then I studied mechanical engineering and business administration, both bachelor master in Germany, spent half a year in China for Bosch in between, but couldn't really get warm with this big corporate culture. And therefore, and during my masters, I went into more the consulting scene with like a student consultancy group and a case study case competition abroad. And afterwards, I joined the Boston Consulting Group for six years and did that in various roles across industries and topics, mostly corporate development and operations. Then the last two years as a project leader and there, obviously, you learn this consulting skill set or you try to learn it around problem solving, prioritization, etc. But at some point, I wanted more to have like a long term ownership and like responsibility, I would say, beyond the project work, like really have the full responsibility and having a concept and then also making it work. And therefore decided then to leave consulting and join a professional service company, because at that point in time, I still thought that it might be way easier to take something existing and move it towards something new, because I always wanted to have an own company and always was looking into software. So I thought, hey, that's a really good starting point. And yeah, that was how I landed, so to say, at Entities in 2021.

Yeah. And it became, as far as I remember, because we talked a little bit before about that, you still started as a service company. And then only then you moved to completely SaaS or not, maybe 100%. But still, how was the shift? When did you decide that, okay, this is something I'm going to do, I'm going to go productize what I'm doing?

Yeah. I mean, it was partially because it was just interesting and we had already some software and the idea to scale it and to have a huge company that's super profitable, et cetera, was like always there. But then on top, it was when I joined 2021 during Corona. We had also some tough times around the service business because it was really like operational data management and also data gathering. So we also went to our clients in their manufacturing sites and digitized the inventory and stuff like that. And then all of a sudden they said, you can't come anymore. And that was a little bit then also a push to, okay, we have to do it now. And but I was at that point in time, I thought, okay, we have like the best starting point because we know what we're doing. We know what kind of problems we're solving and we solve them for so many time. So it might be a piece of cake to do that. But it turned out to be a little bit more challenging than initially thought.

Yeah. I was just about to ask how much of that hypothesis turned out to be true.

I think, I mean, I don't, I never started a software company from scratch, so I can't really compare, but I know that it was way harder and took way more time and effort than I expected it to be to take in the beginning. In my opinion, like the main reasons. So one is the culture, right? This is like, I really underestimated that. Also coming from a consultancy background where like everyone is like hyper-motivated and really wants to do the go the extra mile and you don't really, I don't know, there's there are no problems in that sense, right? Everyone's just focused on stuff. Then you're joining a real company, a normal company, and all of a sudden you have this normal problems. Like people want to go on holiday, they are sick. There's some things, right? This is the one part. And then the other part is you have this very strong service culture where people are used to say yes and to adapt to each customer request. And on top, where everyone says, yeah, we can offer our solution, our service for everyone because, you know, we're working with our brains. So it's like a Swiss Army knife. We can do everything, obviously, something around product management, product data management, but still. Yeah. And then changing that towards a product focused company is tough because you now really need to focus and set a clear route and have clear decisions and really also say no to the client. What no one was used to do. And also me coming from a consultancy background, it was also not really used to say no to a client.

Yeah, absolutely. It's something I think we've discussed very, very rarely here on the podcast. Like we would discuss, cause there are a lot of companies that move from service to product and we would usually discuss just kind of the technicalities and never really talked about the culture and how people are used to very different thing when they're doing services. Like you said, we want to say yes, we want to accommodate everybody. And then when you're doing a product, you have to learn to say no, because then you go to developer and you said, okay, I already promised the butterflies to fly through the screen and it's not there. How does, what do I do now? So can you maybe walk me through some of the steps that you had to take in order to pivot the team as well?

Sure. I mean, first of all, usually in my experience in change management, you try to do it in a slow, steady fashion. You try to bring everyone on board, discuss a lot and then do it gradually, whatever you're doing. And in our case was different. So I decided, okay, we're going to do it. So how do we do it? We need to make it super clear for the outside, but also internally that we're now a software company. It's not something we are putting. It's not like a label to, I don't know, increase later on our valuation or whatever. It's really, we want to change. It's not, it's not like, it's not only a label. And therefore what we do, we did a rebranding. That was more like software focused towards entitys, completely new website, new name. Yeah. Everything new. And then we really, I think it was a, it was like a Christmas party in 2021. Yeah. We showed that to everyone. It was also not a lot of discussion, just, okay, that's what we did. This is what we are right now. You can go now online and you will see it because it's already in the open. Now. So, so we really turned the ship 180 degree from one day to the other and told that to everyone. And then also leaned back a little bit and waited, what's going to happen with the people. And for some, it was okay. They, they liked it. They were really, yeah, they, they were really looking forward to it. Others you could see, they didn't like it. And that was then also the point where we learned, a, we also need a couple of different people or different set. So to say that the organization is not really perfect for a software company. And until that, we haven't really thought about the, the people things. And that was, but you do this hard steering. A couple of people also said, well, that's not for me. And they just left. And I was really surprised in the beginning was also like, I was a little bit afraid, but in the end it turned out to be the best thing because, you know, if you're not up to this new route, then you shouldn't be part of it. And then also, yeah, we had to let go a couple of people after awards. I mean, it was, was good time for, for job seekers during that time. So it was, it was really okay. It was not, not as tough as imagined for everyone involved, but yeah, I think this was quite important to really make it clear. And there was no way back and, and it was also from one day to the other, at least I think it played out.

Yeah, that's a very interesting approach. So you, you were kind of pivoting on the background while the company was still alive. How did you announce it to your customers? And I think more important question is how long did it take your customers to understand that it's real?

Yeah, it took a while. First of all, I mean, we're in the B2B mid-market, very technical focused. A lot of family businesses, they always ask, well, what is this name about? How do I pronounce it? So this was obviously one thing. So first of all, they needed to get used to the new name. Was not so easy for them. But then, you know, so honestly speaking, the ongoing projects, obviously we didn't stop. We just finished them, but not really taking on new assignments that were only professional service focused. Always said to everyone, we still have the capacity and the capabilities to support you also somewhat operationally, but you have to be a software client. We only do that for our software clients. And that still until today, this is one of our, in our opinion, use piece that if you choose to work with us to work with our software, we still have the capabilities and also capacity to support you in really using. So obviously first implementing the software, but then also using it. So we haven't in that sense, diminished that capacity fully, but see it as a still as a USP.

Right. So there is still a bit of services.

But only for software customers. That's like the biggest thing. And that's how we then also really focus on the product. And I mean, by that, we also, we learned so much about our own product because we're using it also a lot and we have the possibility. So to develop it very strongly together with our clients. But here it's then also really the tough part because yeah, you have to say no and you have to, if there's a feature request, you have to look into it in a way that it works for everyone and not for this sole client, because it's really a, it's a, it's a modern SaaS software, multi-tenant cloud solution. So we don't have different front ends or whatever for everyone. Yeah. It's, it's one cluster and everyone runs in it.

Makes sense. Absolutely. So, you know, as I, as I asked before, you know, who is the, who's the ICP, you know, who are the customers now that are the happiest with you and what are you solving for them?

Yep. Yep. Yeah.

So we saw obviously when then doing this pivot and starting to look into our ICP, the first initial reaction was everyone, but this is like really bad to do it like this. And then we really looked into it, right? Like the big enterprises, there are so many solutions for them and like big companies and they have so much marketing spend and everything. So it was really hard to to be in that field. Then the really small ones, if you're looking into product information management, this would be like maybe really small shops. One, two, three, four people, companies having physical products, but maybe just a couple off or so. They don't really need a product information management system because they can do it in their shop back end or maybe even in Excel it's working. It's not that much effort. So what we were thinking, okay, like the B2B mid-market, especially in Germany is like, A, it's a huge sector. B, they are like under digitized, like in a way under digitized and the big companies are not really looking into them because it's also not so easy to work with them because everyone has their own way of working and it's very specific and usually they have grown their business organically and it's so different. So it's very heterogeneous, but this turned out to be then again, I would say a good decision to focus on those because they are also very loyal customers. If you treat them right and really be on eye level with them, then they're super loyal. They take a lot of time to take a decision in that sense because it's a critical software for them. Next to the ERP and maybe the shop, then the PIM system is something you don't want to change every six months or so. But then they're super loyal and we have super good relationship with them.

That's exactly what I want to ask you. How do you build relationship with mid-market German customer?

It's not so easy because we were also trying so many things in the beginning, obviously saying, okay, we don't do any performance marketing, nothing. So let's just do that, get Google Ads running, etc. And we will gain new customers. And that didn't really play out that well. So in the end, it's really about creating touch points as personal as possible, I would say, and then doing that really in the long run. So we regularly close clients where the initial discussion or the initial contact was like one or two years ago. And this is in the beginning, it's very frustrating because you do the demo, you talk with them, and then all of a sudden, they go to you. But after a couple of years, it starts to become something, not a flywheel, but there's something going on. And then from one year ago, two years ago, people are still noticing you. This is also a good learning that you need to keep the connection ongoing. And people don't forget you, but they have so much to do and other priorities maybe, but they don't forget you. And then in the end, what worked and also works for us the best is creating touch points and that might be even going to trade first. We do a lot of physical mailing as well. So we really made them nice packages with information around us. People, everyone has like full email inboxes and there's so much noise, but on their desk, there's not a lot of stuff usually. They have a clean desk and they don't receive a lot of mail and therefore this also works. We got really, really nice feedback. People even showing it then to us in the meeting say, well, so nice. Cool. Thank you for sending that. It was really different. Yeah, everything that really creates a connection, I would say. For me, the biggest takeaway is people see if you put effort in something and that's a little bit counter to this AI outreach. Also not because with AI, you try to create something that looks like there was a lot of effort put into it and there was a lot of effort put in it. It's just a calculation, like calculating effort, not personal. But yeah, I think people see that and they honor it. They also want to give something back if you put the effort in.

Yeah, I totally agree. Staying on top of mind is very important. I hate when it's too bullish and especially, I think it doesn't work in the DACH market because nobody wants you to be bullish with them. But if you're nice and genuine, we've been kind of discussing, disputing this whole, sending something to the office or even to founders home because also a very sensitive area in Germany. Because there are quite a few founders that we would like to, I don't know, send a nice Christmas card, but we're like, are we being nice or are we being stalkers? So there is a fine line. How are you dealing with that?

Hmm, I don't think it's a good idea to send it to someone at their homes because that feels like, I mean, anyway, sometimes people sign up for us on the website somewhere and then they get something in the mail, but at the work address and it might feel like strange, right? But yeah, I think I wouldn't, I always would send it to the company address and I usually, I mean, but maybe that's also my personal view on it, but I always find it nice if someone sends something to me, what I really don't like is these cold calls where someone is just reading the script and I understand that they're just reading a script and that's really nothing human inside. So, you know, that's really what annoys me. But we also once tried with the agency to do cold calling and I don't know where they got the numbers from, but they got a lot of personal mobile phones and it was a disaster. Like people were so annoyed and they were really like all of a sudden also even aggressive because they were like, okay, this is like now really stop here. Yeah, this is the line. Yeah, don't call me on my private phone. Yeah, and I think especially in Germany, you need to take care or be careful to not harm your brand, right? It's a fine line, but I think like really nicely crafted and we do it usually in handwriting also like nicely crafted packages and not like every week. Yeah, it's just, I mean, it's a one off, so to say. We don't send it twice to be honest.

Yeah, yeah, that makes great sense and I really liked what you said about AI. I mean, yes, obviously, 99% of AI stuff that's being sent is total crap and sometimes I'm thinking about the things that people come up with and they're prompting and I'm like, how did you even land here? How did you think that mentioning me being at a university 13 years ago, going to help you pitch me an HR tool? I'm not even an HR person. So stupid, but at the same time, being a user of AI myself and knowing how much time and prompting and re-prompting, debugging, it all goes into this. I mean, kudos for trying, but it's not there yet.

No, I mean, what worked for us quite well is, I mean, anyway, for us, it's not that big of a numbers game. I was following someone on LinkedIn who does this visitor identification on your website. So his TAM is like, everyone? And then you can do like cold outreach and all this stuff really en masse, right? And it's okay if just a couple of percent works and maybe 50% you're wrong with your writing, whatever, it doesn't really matter. But for us, addressable market is not that big. And if I burn all of those leads, then after like three, four months, I have nothing to do. Therefore, I think we try to be more, yeah, very specific, but then obviously use a lot of AI to do the research and maybe even do an initial draft of the email or whatever. So we made really nice experience with doing ICP checks and research with AI and also, yeah, I don't know, building a narrative around why this company would, why it would make sense for this company to use a product information management system. Yeah, this was like the results were really, really good. But I think it's really, for us at the moment, more supportive thing than, okay, I just lean back and let the agent do the work for me.

Yeah, absolutely. And as far as I know, you guys are also bootstrapped, so you have to be careful or a little more careful at least choosing your growth channels and prioritizing what kind of marketing you were doing. So yeah, maybe talk a little bit about the fact that you guys, your bootstrap, why you chose this path and also how it helps or maybe doesn't with the growth.

Yeah, sure. Just for clarification, so to be very transparent, we had during that shift, we had like a small round in the size of an angel pre-seed round, but since we're not aiming for additional fundraising and it was a minor round, I would consider us still bootstrapping. At least this is how it feels and how we act. I mean, the thing is, it's so different, right? Comparison to a VC route. In my opinion, sometimes you need to do this fundraising route because you're maybe doing a physical product or I don't know, now these defense startups. So how could you build something like that from your garage or your living room? That's not possible. But in the field of software, I would say it's often still possible to do it in a bootstrap fashion. And for me, I like that because you control more the direction and the pace. I prefer to focus on rather the sustainability of the business and the customer value over this growth at any cost. I think also in the German market, it's not that easy, this growth at any cost because the buyers are not so easy to just buy and do the next thing. Yeah, and this is a little bit why I did it. And in my experience also, for a lot of people, it was the only way in doing or creating a company is going the fundraising route. But I don't see that. What I also learned is like, I mean, in 2021 or 2020, a lot of people also choose the VC route because they said they thought it's easy money because you just do it and you do growth at any cost, no matter the profitability. And then already during Series A, latest Series B, you might get some secondaries and then you're done. So I think a lot of people also didn't really focus on creating a sustainable company, but rather trying to get quick money.

Yeah. Oh, no, absolutely. I mean, if you go back, I just recently started comparing the numbers of what TechCrunch is posting right now. And I mean, of course, there's a lot of AI and still a lot of buzz, but the numbers are very different fundraising these days and back then during COVID. So it's super funny to see how it shifted. But how does it affect your investment within the company? And are there maybe any processes that help you prioritize different channels?

I mean, I would say, first of all, we need to focus and focus the most important part of it. And really, I would say the positioning. We're in a very, very crowded market. It's really red ocean, so it couldn't be more red. And then you really need to look into, okay, what do I need to do? So for instance, we don't need to educate the market on why you need a PIM. In the beginning, we were trying to do that, but then we learned why. There's so many players and so big players, they put so much effort into educate the market. So that's not what we are going to do. So that's why when we decided to say, okay, we need to spend really on visibility and the clear differentiation. But that already we saved a lot of money and tons of money. And I think if I would have maybe raised a lot of money, I would just put someone in marketing and say, okay, do this, that. And now I need to deploy more money. I don't have time to discuss with you, so just go for it. And therefore, I think it's even an advantage being limited in your spending because it forces you to focus. And for us, it was really visibility and then a clear differentiation. And yeah, that's where we then in the next step really thought, okay, how do we want to position? Do we position in the category? Do we position in the use case? Do we position as an alternative? All those things I wouldn't have thought about if it was just about deploying money.

Yeah. And I mean, you guys are definitely doing something right. You're the number one PIM solution on OMR reviews. And with that, I think it's one of the questions that I always ask people who are their number ones in reviews. How are you driving those? Because I remember maybe it was about a year ago at saas.group and we have 20 plus brands and it was kind of a massive deal because a few brands right away were trying to figure out how to get more reviews because they realized they needed. And there were so many discussions how to do it. What are the incentives? You know, what platforms to prioritize and yada, yada, yada. So, I mean, OMR reviews makes fun. What? It's also fun. It's fun. Yes. OMR reviews makes great sense for you guys because you're in the DACH market. But yeah, the same question. How are you driving reviews? What are the incentives that you're giving to your customers and yeah, how to make it into a flywheel?

I mean, first of all, I think in the beginning we started with Gartner and because this was like, no, Capterra. But it's from Gartner. Yeah. So Capterra. But then we just learned that no one of our clients in the B2B DACH market really knew it and looked into that. And so we were looking for a more German focused platform and then stumbled upon OMR. And then just tried it. Yeah, we did it in parallel. So we asked everyone to do an OMR review and also a Capterra review. And then soon we realized that we got some inbounds. People were mentioning that. And but no one mentioned the other international platforms or even G2 or something like that. Just it seems not to be for our market. That's when we said, OK, we focus solely on OMR reviews and then really ask our clients because we usually have good connection with them. We also have like a community concept where we have, for instance, a free community call every Thursday where everyone can dial in and just ask questions or they discuss among each other. But since we try to really have it like a community, it's also easy to then bring these topics up and ask them to support you. And in January, we also try to support our clients quite intensively and be close to them. And therefore, usually if you then ask them to do something for you, they are also willing to do that and support you. Plus, we also tell them because some people think if you gain more clients, you have less focus on them and therefore it's something bad. But I always tell our clients we are a multi-tenant cloud solution. The more clients we have, the more capacity we can put into product engineering and everyone wins out of that. Right. So please support us in gaining additional clients because this will in the end help you. And how can we do that? To be more visible. How can we do that? By getting reviews, by getting success stories on the home page. We also started that. We have so many nice references, but we never really worked on them. So we didn't put them on the website. We didn't put that effort in. And then at some point we say, okay, we need to do it. And nowadays, because everyone asks for a discount or something, and when we say, okay, but you can have a discount, but not for free. Right. So you need to give something back. And therefore we want like the contract, we want a success story for instance. I think it's fair. It helps us a lot. And for you, the discount is very helpful. And obviously it has to be a genuine success story. Right. We cannot just write something that's not true.

It's interesting. We had a VP of marketing of OMR reviews here on the podcast. And I was trying to, you know, shake him up a little bit and I was like, Marvin, okay. What you as a person that knows this inside out, what's your biggest advice to founders who want more reviews? What is it? What drives more personal reviews? And yeah, at the end of the day, it was Starbucks vouchers. Like yellow, free coffee. Amazing. You, you, you type your review while you're waiting for it. So it's a win-win.

And what we also did is we, we offered also people to support them in writing that. It's so interesting. How hard it is for people. And I experienced that on my own because I was also asked and then you have like, how are you using this software? What's good about it? What could be better? What problems are you solving? And you're like, and it feels like a big task to these couple of sentences. So often we just ask them, okay, let's have a quick, I don't know, brainstorming or whatever. And maybe this is our view on this because then for them, it feels like a lot of time they need to spend on it. Yeah. And that's why maybe then the Starbucks voucher also helps in, in, in yeah. Being at least something to, to get back.

Yeah. I don't remember what company was it. But I remember that I absolutely loved the idea. So they do have this usual, you know, pop-up window where you can type a review or type a question or something, but they also empower you to just send an audio message. And I thought this is so brilliant because usually, like you said, if it's a bit of writing, I need to explain things and I need to tell you exactly about my processes. I would be so much better off with just, you know, a chance to send you a quick audio. And then there is a ton of AI that can transcribe it, send it to you. And that's it. And again, it would be a win-win. So maybe something to think about.

No, I really like it. And also I read about it on LinkedIn, that big in-commerce brand. They included some audio snippets on their product pages to explain the product and it feels so more, way more human. And I think the trust in what is said, it goes up and therefore it would be a win-win, right? It's easier for the one giving the review, but again, if you can hear it, would even add more credibility to the review because it's, yeah. That's why we also in comparison, not comparison, but in addition to our success stories and the reviews, we are also for Q1 now planning to have some video statements from our clients, from our customers just to also use it in outreach or in just in the sales process to really show here, there is a human behind what is written there. And then we're interested how it works out.

Yeah, absolutely. I was even talking to our head of AI at SaaS group and she was telling me about this context engineering and how a lot of people are not big supporters of that, but in her opinion, like for her personally telling everything to basically just explaining what this is about and how she wants it written. So again, just using the voice, I think it just gives you an opportunity to, I don't know, to rant a little bit, to go a little bit further with your review and then yeah, just maybe a bit more details that would otherwise not make it into a review. All right.

I agree.

All right. Well, I'm just going to ask you a couple more questions. And yeah, these are about your journey. It can be your personal wins and failures or something about the company, but over this last few years, what was the biggest win and the biggest failure?

I would say what was the biggest win? I mean, I became a father two years ago, so that obviously in a personal way, it was the biggest win so far. But also a really big challenge, I have to say. Other than that, from a company perspective or from my professional perspective, I think biggest win is not this single instance, but really now that we have a super small, highly focused, highly effective team, I think still it's ridiculous what we're able to achieve at the moment with this few people in comparison to how many we were before, like two years ago, and we were able to achieve less. So this is so cool to see. And I really like that. Yes.

I wonder how much of it is because of AI.

It definitely has a huge impact. Still, my developers are always complaining that AI is not good enough, that we have a very complex solution and it's not as easy as I imagine it to be, to use AI in order to make it better. But I'm still in exact, especially in documentation and finding errors and getting suggestions it's a huge boost. And then for me personally, I use it the whole day and without AI, I wouldn't be able to achieve what I'm doing every day. So it plays a big part, but also really understanding what's our goal, what's our ICP, what are we aiming for and having these hard decisions. I think it also is super, super important around that to be able to do that.

100%. I think it's true that maybe AI benefits people who are real experts a little bit more because at the end of the day, they know exactly where they're going and how they want it to look like. They just don't want to spend the time and maybe they would enjoy to be a bit more creative on the way. But yeah, I think still having the core figured out and knowing, your developers know that it's not good enough for them. It's not like it's just an assumption, but what has, have there been a failure?

So many, I would say it's daily business failures are daily business, I would say, because from that you learn. I mean, I think in the shift from service to product, we did a lot of things the right way, but also I would say like the biggest overall failure or what I also would then if you turn it around, would recommend everyone is like, don't delay hard decisions, especially when the answer is already obvious. So I did that a couple of times, I would say. I knew something was off and it won't work, but I still kind of, I don't know, didn't want to take that decision or was saying, okay, well, when I do it, there's a couple of things I need to take care of and off. So let's rather wait a little bit longer. Yeah. And I think that's not a good idea. So if you already know the answer, act on it as fast as possible. That would be my takeaway based on this failure. Yeah. All these failures.

I just recently picked up a book. I think that's exactly the name of it, The Gut Feeling. And I mean, I'm going to be honest, it got very boring by the middle. So I didn't finish it, but the gist of it was basically the same. Yes. So we know the answer way before we answer. So if we just give ourselves a little bit of credit to act faster, it would probably benefit everybody. What about a hack? Is there a hack that works for you? It can be your personal one, how to deal with SaaS, with AI FOMO, with the customers. Or it can be something that works for a company.

I mean, I'm not sure if it's a hack, but obviously, when I became a father, I needed to shift a little bit my priorities as well. And then I would think, okay, will this then hurt the company? But I think it didn't. And I think really not being with your mind occupied around your company the full day, but really having a clear cut because you now really need to focus on it. And it might be sports, but it could be a child or whatever, but something that really drags you out of it, that helps me a lot. And then sometimes there the best ideas pop up. And I had a nice discussion. It was yesterday with a former founder who had now a huge, huge exit. And he said, yeah, a lot of people have nice ideas under the shower, but few of them act on it. So I think the hack is to act on things, but just decide on a couple of things and then really act on those and don't try to solve every problem for everyone and do everything in parallel. That's maybe not true if it's a hack, but in my opinion, my experience, there are not a lot of hacks, honestly. It's like you need to be diligent from every day, every day. And at some point it starts to work out.

Yeah, it compounds. And as a mom, I can totally back you up here. It really helps to just kind of get out of that hole where you're always in the same context and trying to solve so many problems. And when you kind of, sometimes you need to physically drag yourself out of it. Mine is a seven-year-old, so he can actually do that. But yeah, it's nice to kind of just take a virtual imagined shower of different responsibilities, not just your sauce. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. I think it's a great story. You guys are doing really well. And I think you're one of those founders that I talked to. And then I always discuss my conversations with a few people later. And I thought you were so focused on what you're doing. So you know your customers, you know how it works. Again, you are in that context because you're focusing on German market and you take the culture into account and you know the people that you're working with and their relationship. And I thought that's not a unique approach, but so rare still. That was really fascinating to learn about.

Cool. Thank you.

Thanks for your story.

That's nice.

Let's do it again sometime. So yeah, let's see what you're up to in 2026. Yes. See you later.

Thank you, Anna. It was really nice talking to you. Thanks a lot.

Same here. And take care.

Bye bye.

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