The Wu-Tang way

Welcome to Changelog and Friends, a weekly talk show about high altitude balloons. Thanks to our partners at Fly .io. Launch your app near your users all around the world. Fly makes it easy. Learn more at Fly .io. Okay, let's talk. Today we're joined by the incomparable Ron Evans. Ron is a technologist for hire with the Hybrid Group, an open source developer working on TinyGo, GoBot, GoCV, and more, an author, a speaker, an iconoclast, and one of our favorite people in tech. Adam and I have both loved talking with Ron since the first day we met him many years ago, and we think he will too. Okay, here he is. I am talking to you through outer space, which we can discuss as well. How so? Well, I'm on Starlink. Oh, so all of your words are going up into the air and then coming back down. Yes. Before they get to us. It's amazing. Do you know exactly how high those things are? Because they've solved the latency problem of other satellite internet providers, right? Because they're not that high. That is absolutely true. They're in a lower orbit than the Ka band that the original like direct PC, you know, Hughes Aerospace Satellites. Those are actually a lot further away. The Starlink constellations are relatively close. That's why you can see them with the naked eye, you know, much to the chagrin of astronomers. And anybody who likes to look up in the sky at night, you know, now you're seeing all this stuff flying around out there. Well, I look up in the sky and I like to. I also like to see human works flying around in space just because it inspires me. Okay. It makes me think, hey, the future is actually here. You know, it's not by that, I mean, I find New York City or Madrid or Hong Kong, many places, you know, Los Angeles at night. Yeah. If you're flying into Los Angeles at night, that's the actual LA you want to see. Because it's, you know, you're flying for an hour over just endless lights. And you're like, where's the city begin? So I mean, I find it, of our human works, there's a beauty to it. You know, I'm not, I'll tear down human civilization. No, I'm like build up human civilization. Now I understand the problem of littering space with a bunch of junk. That's a different. Yeah, eventually like LA, you know, the smog. And then eventually we have so many low earth, low orbit satellites up there that I don't know, maybe we never have darkness again or something. They don't exactly reflect light, but they don't put off light, do they? You could just send up a high altitude balloon and just hook on the one and just, whoa, there we go. That would be interesting. Well, actually one of my next balloon projects, I'm hoping to connect to some satellites, actually. How many balloon projects do you have, Ron? Oh my gosh, one of my next. I know, he just assumes that we know this guy has balloon projects, please tell us. Oh, well, so last year was my third year in the row of speaking at FOSDEM, the awesome free and open source conference in Belgium, in Brussels. And it was my third edition of the Go Without Wires saga. Right, first year it was Go Without Wires about Bluetooth. Second year, Go Further Without Wires about local area networking with wifi. Last year, it was Go Even Further Without Wires. I think you're running out of titles though. Oh no, no, not even close. So my, it was about long distance radio networking using LoRaWAN, which is a standard for using unlicensed spectrum that's free to use for anyone in the public. Oh, I haven't heard of this, LoRaWAN. Yeah, LoRa, like long distance radio. And then on top of that is a routable protocol called LoRaWAN, like wide area networking. And the real pioneers in this space are the Things Network, which is a open source slash commercial open source organization that has a whole network of these routers. Basically, you can connect to these local long range radio networks, and then it has a backhaul to the internet. That way, you don't necessarily have to have your own private network. It can just get routed through the Things Network to whatever cloud servers that you want to. So this is, of course, really useful for applications in industrial or agriculture or smart cities, or they have quite a few of them. There's a bunch of telecos that are also participating in this. So the finale of my talk was a high altitude balloon programmed with TinyGo using a Raspberry Pi RP2040 Pico

board.

Since these tiny balloons are called Pico balloons, so I'm very literal, I thought, oh, I should build one with a Raspberry Pi Pico. I mean, obviously, it was in the instructions as far as I was concerned. It's in the title. It's right there in the name, yeah. It's in the title. Don't be wrong. So I have a long distance radio. I had a GPS. I had an accelerometer. It was all hand wired using a proto board and wire wrap just because I got into this retro computing thing. And it happened to be the weekend that everybody was talking about the balloons of Chinese origin. Oh, right. They were floating over the US. Yeah. Now, to be fair, okay, all parts are of Chinese origin. So it's just sort of like a - Hard not to find them in Chinese origin. Yeah, I mean, certainly anything that's in the toy category. So less than 250 grams. You don't have to file a flight plan or anything. You know, it's basically toy balloons. Oh, wow. Which literally I had ordered from Amazon and other such places, you know, got at toy stores. I mean, I only work with toys now generally. I mean, it's only for you to let me have anymore. It's a policy. Yeah, but like if you just give them toys, it'll keep them busy and you know, you won't get into much trouble. So how high up would this balloon go? So this particular balloon, it was on Hackaday. You can get some of the stats. It was called Tiny Global, the first one. We released it on Sunday there and we did a countdown. We released it. It reached an altitude of about, I think somewhere between six and 8 ,000 meters. And it traveled approximately 400 kilometers from Brussels south of Orleans, France before we lost contact. So I don't know if it was the French Air Force shot it down or if the battery died or, you know, something. I haven't gone back to France since then. You're not going to collect this hardware. Well, no, it didn't land. It just kept floating. That was just where we lost contact. How do you know it didn't land, Ron? Well, I mean, I imagine it landed somewhere sometime. Okay, well, you just said it didn't land. So I was like, what? Well, at some point - Well, you don't know where it landed. No, no, but it was very successful first flight. Got telemetry the whole way every 30 seconds thanks to the things network. It proved that the long distance radio networking and support in TinyGo actually worked just because, yeah. I mean, it was way out of my hands. So that was very cool. Then we did the reprise of it at the Gopher Con EU in Berlin in the summer. That launch was a little trickier. It traveled just, it was just a little ways north of Dresden when we lost contact. I'm like, oh no, not an American balloon going over Dresden. Like, you know, I won't be able to go back anywhere. That was, the wind conditions were a lot more difficult. So both of those were battery powered and my next one will be solar powered. That way I can actually circumnavigate the globe and ideally connect to some of the new satellite networks that are being built that will be supporting this same LoRa protocol. Wow.

So yeah, I'd like to go around the world in 80 days with a toy balloon programmed entirely with TinyGo that's sending telemetry data. Just as far as citizen science, you

know, and reducing the cost of entry for experimenters and explorers and people to find out more of the things that they can really do. You know, this is a great, so these are some of my hobbies and also a great way for proving out some of the technologies. Like if it works here, it'll probably work in a more conventional farm vehicle or something that's of terrestrial origin. Yeah, it's really pushing into the extreme being that high. I'm looking at photos on Hackaday and it looks like it's got not just one balloon, but multiple, it seems like maybe three, maybe four balloons, is that right? Like they're clear balloons. What's inside the balloons? How did you design this? Like what, give us the details on like the exact innovator's dilemma of making this real and going in the air like that. Well, like any wise person, I go onto the internets and find out that other people have done before I do anything. So you watched YouTube. There's a whole community of Pico balloon enthusiasts who are doing. Really? Oh yeah. Of course there is. Of course there is. They're doing amazing things. So I borrowed some of their design ideas. Specifically, the balloons are toy balloons made of vinyl. And you have to stretch them out. They're filled with helium that you could just get in any balloon type party store. In fact, that's where I get my helium is from party stores. Pay with cash in the party store. No, no. Yeah. So they're transparent, ideally, so that the sun can get through to charge with every solar cell. This one I didn't have the solar. I didn't have the solar thing set up. I actually had the equipment, but I didn't try to use it because I had some, I had some software problems actually with the low power mode. So I had it working to charge, but it would discharge in about five minutes. So I couldn't, the idea with these things is it recharges when it hits the sun, wakes up, sends some telemetry data, goes back to sleep, and so on, as long as it's in sunlight, generally done with a thin film solar panel and some super capacitors. So I had the design. I built it, again, from specific parts that I happen to have on hand and I was able to do with the wire wrap. But these balloons, you stretch them out, since gas expands when you hit higher altitudes, that's the reason why there's four of them, is that each one is only partially filled. You'll fill them part way. That way when they reach, what I thought was gonna happen was that it was gonna go a lot higher and then pop. What instead happened was it reached apparently an altitude where it was just stretched out enough to not lose any gas or have any bursting. So yeah, beginner's luck on that one. The second, it was a little harder just because there were a bunch of big trees right there in the venue. So that's always very exciting. So you wanna circumnavigate the globe. Do you wanna be able to then control these things, like drive them? Or are you just saying you send it in a direction and hope it ends up going around the world? Yeah, there's no controlling. They're just release, no catch. They just go. Generally, this type of high altitude ballooning is done either by people doing this with a toy balloon thing or people who use latex balloons with a payload with a parachute. With those, you actually file a flight plan to be responsible to make sure that you're not gonna interfere with any air traffic since. Yeah, absolutely. That's something, I mean, just because there's no actual law preventing you doesn't mean you should just go and do something stupid. Yeah, there's wisdom there. Just like a tiny modicum of common sense, will perhaps, like if you think it, I mean, you can't think of every possibility, but it's certainly a good thing to not release like balloons right next to, for example, the US Naval Air Station in San Diego, which is why I did not do that at GopherCon US. I'm like, you know, this is both stupid. And it's also very rude, like impolite, like you should know better and also you should just know better. Yeah, definitely exciting, definitely exciting, Jared. I think you'll also get on the wrong people's radar, potentially, right? Yeah, no, you're definitely on the wrong people's radar right away. Because you're already not filing flight plans, which is, you're okay with the grams and the weight, but at the same time, if you did this with like, let's just say a paper trail, not paying cash at the party store, for example, you could be called upon for some - Well, I'm a known white hat, which is why they would be so angry. Oh, okay. Oh, because you'd be darkening your hat up doing that. No, it'd be just a matter of like, I actually do know better.

Right,

that's true. Now, I mean, this is also a matter of like, what is your purpose in doing this? My purpose is to help show young scientists the opportunities they have to do some exploration in a way that costs very little and that gives them a chance to learn quite a lot. But these are things that are quite important, not just in the future, but really in the present. A great example of citizen science being a lot better was a cool project a few years ago when the Fukushima incident occurred called Safecast. And it was basically being able to turn your mobile phone and connect it to turn it into a homemade Geiger counter. And that way they could get a lot more accurate readings of the type of data just because the government would go in, they would take their readings of a certain meter height at a certain frequency and it was a relatively small data set. So this allowed a bunch of citizens to start collecting data. And one of the things they found, for example, was that there was a lot higher concentration of radiation lower to the ground than at the two or three meter height of these poles. So that was one reason why it tended to affect younger people, pets and animals and people who were in wheelchairs just because they were lower to the ground. And so this higher concentration affected them more than adults. So this is data that they wouldn't have had if they didn't have just people who were interested who cared about this. So I mean, it's a great example of open science, open source technology, working for social good. To me, that's the sweet spot of why we do this. Well, Cloudflare's developer week is over, but there is so much to cover from that week and I'm here to give you a roundup, so here we go. Their fully distributed serverless database D1 went GA. It now supports 10 gigabytes of data and they added new exporting solutions and insight tools. HyperDrive, which accelerates your Postgres and MySQL databases also went GA. You know that monthly workers pay plan they offer? How much does that cost? $5? Yeah, $5. And how much does it cost to completely speed up your database operations using HyperDrive? Zero. Yeah, zero dollars. With queues, you can now send and acknowledge messages from any HTTP client. They also added the ability to add delays. Yes, they added delays. Workers Analytics Engine, which provides analytics at scale, flipped the GA switch too. They launched a brand new AI playground that lets you explore all the hosted models on workers AI, which by the way, also went GA. That's right, production grade global AI inference that you don't need to deploy, all available seamlessly in workers or directly from a REST API call. They also announced a partnership with Hugging Face, so you can now quickly deploy an app using these models and fine tunes are here, y 'all. That's right, they offer LoRa support, upload your fine tunes from Wrangler and apply them to their most popular LLMs. There are so many ways for you to build with AI using Cloudflare, it's awesome. And Cloudflare doesn't support Python? Wrong, they do now. Python workers is here. From the same command using Wrangler, you can now launch a worker that can fast API, Lang chain, NumPy and more. R2 got event notifications, you can get notified now when an object is created, changed or deleted and handle that event in your worker. And who says you can't spell SDK without SDK? Craig did. And that means they have new SDKs for you to use, TypeScript, Go and Python. And that is just a few announcements from Cloudflare's developer week. Check it all out for yourself at cloudflare .com slash developer week. Once again, cloudflare .com slash developer week. Can we talk about that Geiger counter for a second because I'm curious about this because like, if you, are they readily available, can you buy? Can you just go buy one? Oh, sure. Sure. And this was using, I believe some for the graphic parts that you'll have to safe cast. I don't know all the details. I did not make one of these myself. I've got enough problems without ordering parts that could be used to make a Geiger counter. Well, did you explain what the use of a Geiger counter is so that the folks who don't know? Cause I'm like, I'm barely initiated. So for the barely initiated or the fully uninitiated, what is a Geiger counter? And why would you want to include one to gather data given this kind of mission? So a Geiger counter is a device whose purpose is to be able to read the ambient level of radiation in a local area. And they're generally used when you're working around sources of radiation, whether they're natural ones like uranium ores or artificial ones, the X -ray machine, for example. Now there's a reason why when you go and get X -rays that the technician, first of all, they leave the room. That way they're standing on the other side of a lead shield. Lead is a very dense element. And so the X -rays are unable to go through the lead. That's why they give you a lead apron to put over your sensitive parts. When you go in for one of those X -rays is to protect you from this radiation just because repeated exposure. This is actually one of the reasons why it's gonna be quite difficult for us to leave the earth and go to, for example, colonize Mars, is the colonists by the time they got there would be barely alive, if alive at all, just because of the radiation in space. So Geiger counter is one of the original, it's a very old device. It's a very simple device, generally speaking, that is able to measure this ambient radiation. And so the Safecast team, they were basically using an Arduino connected to some salvage electronics parts to be able to then connect this to your mobile phone and take readings that you could then upload to their web -based data store. Yeah, I'm glad you explained that because you did a much better job than I would have done explaining a Geiger counter. Although I do understand the radiation and measuring it. I was surprised, I've never looked into this to know it's readily available where you can just maybe go, maybe not readily, literally available like in literally any Radio Shack or go by the Target or Walmart or whatever, but they're available to maybe hobbyists and purists who wanna like look into this. But the reason why I think it might be odd for any given civilian to buy this thing is because you can learn things about the earth and its atmosphere and let's just say scientific beliefs that may not actually be factual in our world. Like you can learn for yourself as a scientist would, for example, even specific to the radiation belt that's around the earth that you say prevents or could prevent human travel to Mars or let's just say the moon. No, just even staying in a high orbit. Right, right. The van, what is it, the van, what's the Van Allen belt? Is that right, Van Allen belt? Yeah, that's one of several belts in the ionosphere which protect us from, and it's a very thin, I mean, if you look at the actual atmosphere relative to the planet, like it is a thin little tiny piece of transparent, it's not even aluminum. Nothing, basically, yeah. It's like jello, it's like this tiny little skin. Like an eyeball almost, like a membrane around an eyeball. Yeah, that's just protecting us from literally getting cooked When you said that about Mars, do you lean the way of exiting Earth as humanity may or may not have? Like, are you a conspiracy theorist? Which way do you lean when it comes to Earth's departure, humanity's departure from Earth, and have we or have we not? Oh, well, I think we're a long way. There's a great, I can't remember the name of the couple that wrote this book. It's about how to colonize Mars, basically. That's not the actual title. Sure. We'll have to look this up. That'd be a terrible title, the paraphrase version. They started out super optimistic. They're like, yeah, we're gonna see this in our lifetime. And by the time they got to the point where they could actually write the book, the enormous reality check of the distance between the technology we have today and the technologies that we actually would need is quite vast, just to keep people alive between here to there, let alone when you get there, now what? Yeah, whole different problems. I mean, if you live in a modern city, you're already drinking the refined, but water system in your city is already purifying people's urine and you're drinking it today. Don't tell me that, Ron. Come on, now. This is the municipal water supply in most major cities. Okay. But it's also got other sources, right? On Mars, it's like, this is it. You know? That's the only water we have. Right, this is the only water we've got. Did he answer my question though, Jared? Or do you think he - No, he's talking Mars. He's talking Mars. Circumnavigated on - So do I, I think that it's a great thing for the human exploration of space, but the reality of where we'd actually need to be to get there is a long way from this, Spaceship Earth is the spaceship. This is the place. We have to maintain, preserve, and improve this one because it's gonna take quite a few more generations before there's any reality of being able to send humans to survive even one generation. You know, it's gonna take an incredible collective effort just to do that little tiny bit, and Spaceship Earth is the place, so. Right. You think we could practice on the Arctic, you know, let's survive cold and colonize the Arctic and the Antarctic. We have, there's people there, but very few, right? Like we could, let's build cities there and thrive there where it's very harsh terrain and environment, but hey, they have oxygen, which is nice, you know? And if we could do that, we could, you know, if we can do that, maybe we could do something like Mars, but until then. We had one, it was called Biosphere. Oh, is that a Pauly Shore movie? That was a movie, right? Biodome. The Biodome, a pure self -contained environment where five scientists are about to be sealed off from every conceivable form of contamination except one. Yeah, Biodome. Biodome was, that was probably one of his better movies, which is really frightening. Which isn't saying much. But that was actually based on the true story. I know, hard to believe. So they built it in, I think the Arizona desert. The idea was to have a totally self -contained system, you know, where, you know, I forget how many people, like seven people entered it or something,

you

know, where they - How many walked out the other side? No, they all left, but they really hated each other by then. There was, I think they didn't actually speak to each other for several months, you know, one group and another. You know, it was kind of an amazing experiment. It's kind of like the real world. Remember that old MTV show, The Real World, only this is inside of a Biodome. That's even more real. That would have made good television. Yeah, they'd still be doing it if that existed at the time. Yeah, really. You know, maybe somebody should pitch that. That's actually kind of a cool idea. But I mean, they did learn quite a lot. You know, one thing they learned was having so many different environments was very impractical. That having a smaller number of environments was more practical for being able to try to maintain, you know, continuous ecosystems. Cause they had to do a lot of maintenance. I mean, it was full -time maintenance work. Did they try to have a desert and a forest and they have like all these different? Yeah, it was like, it was some seventies movie, you know, where they would say, you know, Kumbaya, we're like, hey man, hippies in space, you know? Right. And then the reality is like, yeah, but I mean, man, we got to do weeding in space. Like all day, all day we're like, all the plants we're trying to grow are dying and the ones we don't want are taking over and we're in space. Like what do we do now? All right. So, but the worst thing about it though, is they didn't keep going. Like they stopped, they did one run. They're like, wow, that was really crazy. And they shut it down. You know, that they needed to keep doing that for 20, 30 more years. Right. To really learn something as far as, you know, science. You know, there's a big difference between R &D for a scientist and R &D for businesses. You know, scientists, they go and they do a bunch of research, they spend a bunch of time. They come back and they say, after spending my entire life, I've discovered that the answer to that question is no. Right, and everyone's like, oh, Nobel Prize, amazing. Okay, now you try to do that when you're working for some company, forget to your whole life's work. Like two months later, your boss's boss comes in, oh, how's it going? Like, oh, I'm starting to think like we can't do this. Like what? This program's canceled, you're fired, everyone. You know, like the answer was yes. Like we were just asked, we were paying you to figure out how, like this is not science. That's one of the hard things about science and about research is that there are certain incentives, right, where the capital comes from. There are certain tests and certain things that are never gonna be funded in order to be run. And so you're not gonna have, you don't get, you know, credentials by failing, but not a failure. Like proving a hypothesis false is not a failure, but when it comes to getting more money, it seems like it is a failure. You know, nobody wants to say no. This segues perfectly to the conversation about machine learning, I think. Let's do it, let's do it. Just because yes, you know, if your discovery is that something isn't going to work, this is an enormous contribution to the community knowledge of humankind. Because you figured out, oh, let's try this other direction. But this is not something that's commercially exploitable, generally speaking, and we need quick results. And this is one of the big problems with fundamental research into things like machine learning and commercialization of things, which must be productized now, whether they work or not, we just need, you know, monthly recurring revenues. Like you gotta do whatever it's gonna take to get me there. And if you don't, you know, again, you're quite fired, you know, but do not look at the man behind the curtain. And, you know, it's a classic case of Roy Amara. Roy Amara was the guy who said, we have a tendency to overestimate the short -term benefits of technology and underestimate the long -term ones, right? Like I'm gonna make a unpopular prediction. 90 % of the companies that are trying to do machine learning will fail. And the reason they'll fail is because they won't actually produce anything of value whatsoever, perhaps of negative value, right? The other 10 % will survive, not because they're actually doing anything worthwhile, but because they'll figure out how to do something. You know, and this is just - That's all part of the process, right? Right, that's part of the process. It just gets distorted a bit by, you know, large sums of money. You know, there was a great video, you know, everybody, every entrepreneur is putting, you know, machine learning in their investor deck, you know, just like, oh, put it on, you know, as a, whether or not it makes sense. Every company is an AI company now. You know, and this is kind of throwing away the baby with the bathwater as far as, okay, a bunch of this is sort of nonsense, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to learn something from it, but with so much noise and so little signal, it makes it quite difficult to sort it out. I did a talk in Spanish called That Machine Always Lies. I haven't never done it in English. Hopefully I'll get a chance to do it at some point. But it was a takeoff on, you know, that my brother always lies, you know, the logic puzzle. So it's one of these - Like game theory things? It's more of an example of exclusive ore. So you are a traveler, right? Some versions of the story, you're a soldier trying to go home from the wars. Others, you know, you're a traveling merchant. You come to a crossroads, and standing at the crossroads are two identical twins. So one of them, there's a sign. It says, one of these brothers only tells the truth, and the only one always lies. Okay, this is ringing a bell. You can only ask one question of one of them, and you have to figure out which way to go. So it's one of these classic logic puzzles that I think it's been around since maybe the 1600s or maybe longer. It probably was around longer. It's just they never got around to writing it down. What's the move? What are you supposed to do? How do you figure it out? So think about it this way, right? One brother will always tell the truth. The other one will always lie. You're only allowed one question. The question is quite simple. Which way would your brother tell me to go? You ask one of them. You ask the one that tells the truth, and then he - It doesn't matter which one, right? If you ask the - All of them will give you. Exactly. So this way, the one that always tells the truth will tell you about the lie of the brother who always lies. The one that always lies will simply lie. So you go the opposite way of the way that either one of them tell you, and that's the correct way. Couldn't you just ask the one that tells the truth, which way should I go? You don't know which one is which. Oh, you didn't say that part. Well, because - Did you say that part and I missed it? That makes sense. Well, no one thinks, I think, that logically the one who does tell the truth can overhear you asking the one who may or may not be the one who does tell the truth the question. So you can say which, like he had said, because you can ask one of them, it's a 50 -50 chance this person tells the truth. The other one is a 50 -50 chance of being a liar, and they overhear it. That's a 100 % chance if you ask that question. Well, no, it's perfectly consistent in this example. Something like exclusive or. Maybe a better example would be Zeno's paradox. Zeno's paradox is the oldest paradox I know of. So Zeno is from Crete, okay? And Zeno says, all Cretans, people from the island Crete, are liars. So now here's the paradox. If he is telling the truth, and he is from Crete, then it is impossible that all of the people from Crete are liars because he simply told you the truth. On the other hand, if he did not tell you the truth, so you see, this is known as Zeno's paradox, and we're just touching upon the paradoxes which exist in human thought. It's not perfectly rational. So how to encapsulate that and reduce it down to any form of quantitative calculation is something which we actually don't really know how to do. So calling it artificial intelligence is out of the gate. My brother always lies. That does not mean these things are not useful potentially and that we should not learn from them, but pretty much everything you've been told is not actually true. And a great example of this, I mean, let's say you have a company, okay? Your company does some database sorting. Don't you want people to think, like this database sorting is so powerful that could literally destroy human civilization as we know it. If you buy this database sort index sorting, this query engine, it literally could destroy society as we know it. You as a CEO would be like, how do I get my hands on that thing? I want that baby. You wouldn't be like, oh my God, we could do the database query that could destroy our entire planet. You think like, man, I got to get that before the other guys. If you're selling this database engine, you literally want people to think it's as if you have nuclear fuel inside the database engine. Now just substitute machine learning for database engine. And I believe we have a pretty good view of what the distance between hype and reality and how that is a great marketing. Like everybody wants to get this thing on their side, get it away from their competitor. And that's just before we go into some other area. I think it's great to read the paper that really started the whole controversy from Timnit Gebru, the researcher at Google. The paper is named on the danger of stochastic parrots. And I don't read a lot of academic papers. I'm not an academic. I'm on the technology side. I'm the person who's like looking for other people's research to turn into my development. Cause I have to go to the money people and say, yes, this is going to work. These people proved it. Not, well, we don't know. So I'm looking for a research that I can turn into something. Cause I'm a technologist, that's my thing. So I don't read a lot of academic papers, but I've read a few. This one's quite short. And as academic papers go, it's quite concise and quite clear. And by the way, it's the paper that got her fired from Google with much controversy. And this is before the whole open AI thing came along and sucked all the oxygen out of the air as far as the conversation about machine learning. But I've read this paper about, I don't know, maybe a year ago, year and a half ago. And the first thing I thought was, yeah, okay, cool. But the next time I'm like, wait, they got fired for this? Like there's nothing in there which could possibly be objectionable. You know, the ostensible reason was for lack of academic rigor. Summarize its statement. What's the abstract? Essentially, we're saying that these large language models, because that was the generative AI that the researchers were concerned with, that they need to be looked at as far as what is the source of the training data? What are the implications for its use as far as on society as a whole and on specific working groups and people affected by it? And that we also need to look at the economic and carbon cost of the computation necessary to train and use them. That was it, okay? It just said, we need to look at these things. So nothing really controversial. There is a bit more than that based on using a large language model to discover what this paper might be about. It said environment impact, bias and fairness, misinformation and harm, lack of transparency and economic and social impact. So it's a bit deeper than just simply environmental. Okay, I thought I summarized a few of those, but that's a good summary. Yeah, I didn't summarize the summary. It just like it was more than, it seemed you mentioned just one part. That's why I was adding two. My bad. But it was not saying we should not do this because of these things. It was saying we need to analyze on these axes. Right. Here's a framework for analyzing the impact of this particular technology set. Yeah, which I agree with. I think those are all fair. There's nothing to disagree with. I read this paper twice. First, just because I knew of it. And then the second time, just because I couldn't put my head around why this was such a big deal. But then it made me think, you know, it's very hard to get a person to understand the thing when their job depends on not understanding that thing. Oh yeah. What are you talking about here? I don't know. No, nothing to see here. Move along. So, you know, and this is where the open source machine learning, you know, to me is such an important, you know, genuine open source. You know, when a Llama CPP came out. So when Meta AI's Llama first leaked, I found it absolutely fascinating because first of all, these things don't leak. Okay, have you ever signed a non -disclosure with one of the really big companies? I mean, let's keep in mind that one time, one guy had an iPhone that he had at a bar and literally the San Jose police came with guns drawn face down on the ground, tie wraps dragged off to the jail. Like this guy was a, you know, some type of bioterrorist, right? That was a big controversy. I remember that. Right, okay. His moto, I think, right? Right, and this is not, like that's very extreme, but just dial it back only the tiniest little bit. Okay, and this is like, there's more lawyers than they have people in your whole social network. Right, like you don't - Like a thousand lawyers worked there. Right, exactly. So there was something leaked and something was, I didn't hear about this story there. Somebody, something was leaked from Meta and they were arrested? No, no, no, no, no, no. I was using this as an example. Okay, gotcha. The gizmodo deal back in the day where the person who worked at Apple took their iPhone to a bar and the gizmodo people got their hands on it. Okay, gotcha. He was saying that that person was heavily handled. Heavy handed. The big hyperscalers have not gotten more friendly and nice since then. So when Llama, the model, first leaked, ostensibly it was given to some researchers under specific agreements to not publish anything from it. Within, I don't know, 72 hours or something, it was on torrents and people were downloading it and all of a sudden it was everywhere, right? Now I don't know anything, but it just seems to me like there's no human being brave enough to say, oh yeah, no problem, they won't catch me. Like, you know, with these watermark things. So I have a slightly different theory, which is a bit more, you know, when you're losing a game of chess or you think you are, like some people just, or poker, whatever, you just flip over the board, just like, ah, you know, we got to start over, right? Well, why would they leak it themselves? So you're theorizing perhaps that Llama let it leak out on purpose, couldn't they just release it though? Because why leak it when you could just release it? You get more goodwill by saying, hey, this is, you know, that's what they're doing now. What after a leak, then they really. Adam, you asked me about conspiracy theories. I'm trying to give you one here, man. Come on, I'm trying to give it, I'm giving you what you asked for. No, like, you know, plus it's a PR thing. I mean, you're losing the mind share. I mean, these are a bunch of really serious researchers who've done a lot of good work over like many, many years. These are not, you know, just randos like myself, you know, these are actual people, right? Who know things, you know, and all of a sudden, everyone's like, oh, open AI, open AI, you know, and if you're on that team, you're probably not too happy about this. Like, you know, I mean, research is very competitive, whether it should be or should not be is, you know, I'm not an actual researcher, you know. Sure, so llama leaks out potentially on purpose, but. Llama leaks out and it really sets off the Cambrian explosion of suddenly new things popping up day after day after day. People take this model and quantize it and, you know, then alpaca is a smaller, lighter version of llama, you know, and then, I mean, every two days, something new is coming out. So one guy just on the internet says, I wonder if I could run this on my MacBook M1. Like any of us, he decided to vote his weekend to it. Sure enough, kind of got something to work because, you know, usually you'd be like, oh, I'm gonna stand up some type of cluster of machines with a bunch of GPUs and, you know, that's just gonna, you know, this is kind of the big, it's a big person's game with lots of hardware and money to throw at it. So this person's like, no, actually, I could run this on my laptop, gets it to work. All of a sudden, it changes the game yet again. So, you know, I made a few early contributions to that project just because this is very near and dear to my heart, you know. Take the fire and give it to all the humans and damn the consequences because if we don't, it's gonna be so much worse than if we do. Now I'm no Prometheus, I'm gonna be running like hell. You know, plus I wasn't able to actually stall the fire initially. I just passed it out to a couple of people along the way. Don't blame me. You know. You're just the distributor. I'm just in the crew, man. You know, you want the big boss over there. But I mean, it really is setting off was the beginning of a whole, you know, now there's oh so many and there's so many things happening in so many areas and the vast majority of the interesting work is happening in the open. And I think this is a very good thing because it means that the means of computation, you know, sees the means of computation as Cory Doctorow says. Right. You know, I don't think it's good to, on the one hand, limit this to only big companies that have the money to do something with it or on the other to have, you know, governments that are regulating it in a way that favor those big companies to the exclusion of independent and interesting and innovative things that are happening, you know, out here at the ground level. What's up friends. I'm here in the breaks with Sama Alam Naylor from Sentry, Senior Developer Advocate. So we've been working with Sentry for a while now and I love Sentry. We use Sentry here at Changelog. It's so helpful for us. We don't write many bugs though. So that's just how things work for us. Cause we're amazing. But I get to see often how many folks use Sentry and that number has grown over the years. It was 40 ,000, then it was 70 ,000. Then now it's 90 ,000 plus teams. Sama, can you believe that? What is, what are your thoughts on the size of Sentry's impact to software development?

Do you know what, I'm not surprised. It's a quality product and I'm not just talking about that because I work for Sentry, but because I've used Sentry and I think its success is also due to the fact that it supports over 100 SDKs and frameworks. Like any programming language you want to use unless it's ridiculously obscure, Sentry's got an SDK for that. Whether it's an official maintained SDK or whether it's a community SDK, there's a way that you can implement Sentry in your projects with a few lines of code. You don't need to really do much to get its benefit. And I think that's really powerful also in showing that people want to make Sentry work for their frameworks or their languages of choice because it works. And the fact that you can self host Sentry as well, it shows how valuable it is and shows how valuable Sentry knows it is to people. The fact that it's open and out there and you can use it and configure it to your specifications at the code level if you want. And if you wanna not bother about that and pay for it, then you can do that too. I'm not surprised and I'm not surprised that it's growing. I sound biased obviously, but it's the best error monitoring solution I have used in my dev career of many years. And as a front end dev, it feels intuitive. I think a lot of these error monitoring solutions are very backend focused. They're very stack Tracy and not really geared up with a good developer experience. Like here are some logs, here are some things to spit out. You can read them if you care. But with Sentry, it seems to appeal to more developers because of the way it's been engineered. The amount of SDKs that are available makes it appeal to more developers. And you can get started in Sentry in so many different frameworks in less than a minute. And all the instructions are in the app and they point you to documentation if you need it. I actually just recently created a set of videos called Sentry in 60, where I show you how to set up Sentry for the seven top SDKs in less than 60 seconds. And it's a joy to use. And so I'm not surprised that that many people use it.

Well, we use it and we love it. So get Sentry, go fix it, too easy. Check them out at sentry .io, that's S -E -N -T -R -Y .io. And make sure you use our code changelog and you'll get a hundred dollars off the team plan, which is super awesome. Again, use the code changelog, get a hundred bucks off the team plan, sentry .io. What do you think about Meta's new found, open -ish worldview that Zuckerberg talks about a lot? You have Llama 3 now also open. They're calling it open source. I'm not necessarily saying comment on the open source definition and all that, but then you also have their embracement of the Fediverse with threads. You have the new Horizon OS, which runs their meta quest VR. They say that they're gonna open that up. I don't think they're gonna actually open source it, but they're allowing other people to build stuff with it. So there's kind of this seems like newfound, open -ish strategy coming out of meta. Do you have thoughts on that? Or do you think that's good, bad, side -eye? What do you think about it? Well, I mean, I can't really comment specifically on Meta's particular take, just because I don't know anyone there, but I think it's part of a larger trend saying, oh, the end of corporate open source. I think that's totally not, we're nowhere near the end of corporate open source. This is just word, but I mean, we need to compare open source as an asset category. I mean, Meta throwing money at open source is because they're looking for relevance in the world that they're losing relevance in. I think this is very similar to what Google's doing in a lot of ways, struggling to try to figure out, oh, how do we keep our revenues going? What's the next thing? But I don't think they know what that is. I think that open source is a strategy now, because it's a way to try to win the hearts and minds of people and to have them invest their time and their energy. But I also think that the rug pull is kind of the number one strategy in open source, corporate open source now, private equity open source. Which is not a good strategy, right? I mean, that's - No, I think it's a very bad strategy. I think if you say it up front, look, we're a business, we're in here to make money. This is the line. This is the free part. This is the paid part. Join us if you like that. If not, don't, okay? You know the rules getting in. You could decide, do I wanna play or not? These are the table stakes. Changing the rules part way, it's very much Darth Vader telling Lando Calrissian. I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further. You know, this is like, you should have your plan to get out of Cloud City a while ago, all right? Like when they first arrived, you should have been like, yeah, yeah, the meeting is when? Oh yeah, no, I'll be there. I'll be there. And you're like, okay, we're out. You know, don't even take the meeting. You know, run for your lives. You know, and I'm not judging anybody, right? Cause the money changes them. You know, if I had a bunch of money and I'd be changed too, you'd be like, oh man, that guy Ronnie used to be so cool. Like, wow, you know. I feel like the Grateful Dead, you know, they said when they were asked, you know, aren't you selling out? They're like, we've been trying to sell out for years. It was just, no one was buying. No one was buying. So, but I mean, I think it's the changing the rules of the game midway or not even midway late in the day, but also, you know, let's define some, you know, new categories, right? Corporate open source actually now is either directly like a project that's a pet project of one of the hyperscalers, or it's one of the big like Linux foundation type groups where it's, you know, like basically not something you get to join as an individual. Like, hey, can I get into the club? You know, like, oh yeah, sure. You know, you just got to pay our annual dues of, you know, this many bazillion credits and you're in, no problem, right? So, I mean, that's a way of making sure that it's sort of a cartel. Like they control the narrative in a way that doesn't generally threaten anything just because something generally new in an open source that destabilizes a bunch of existing companies is quite dangerous to them. And they don't want that to happen without some way to control it. I mean, it's just a way to perform your fiduciary responsibility to your shareholders. Sure. Buy that company and make them go away. How does hybrid group do it? Because you guys fund a bunch of stuff. I mean, TinyGo, mechanoid, I mean, GoBot, down through that, I mean, hybrid group is your company, right? And these are legit open source. These aren't rug pulls, are they? Are you still waiting to pull the rug out or? Oh man, yeah, I know. Well, I have a slightly different attitude. But so there's, but I'll get to that in one second because I want to talk about the second kind, right? So the corporate open source, you know. Then we have what we call private equity open source, right? Private equity open source is what happens when a big company gets bought by a big company and then their whole purpose is to, you know, basically extract all the value out of it with whatever's left, right? There are some big companies that do this, you know, like you probably have seen them. They go after, you know, mid, some of them, their strategy is like go after mid cap companies, buy them. This has happened to a number of companies. Travis, you know, was a particularly sad example just because a lot of us, you know, depended on Travis CI. Yeah, Codeship was that too. They got bought by private equity and then, you know, squeeze all the juice out. I would say IBM's strategy is, you know, with what happened with Red Hat, you know, was very much an example of that same sort of let's just get all that we can out of whatever we've got in this company left. And again, I don't judge these people. Well, even in Red Hat's case, could they continue as a private company that builds on top of their open source? What is the next big move? What is the exit for that kind of company, right? It really is either, you know, remain independent, IPO if that's possible for them, which it totally is and they did, or get purchased by the next bigger behemoth, which obviously would be like a Google, an IBM, or a Microsoft, or an Apple. And then even HashiCorp, where their purchase from IBM was similar. It was like there's infrastructure, Linux infrastructure, there's, you know, terraforming infrastructure, which was actually called Terraform. Basically that whole purchase was for what happened with Terraform, the relicensing. We talked about that a bit with OpenTofu and we actually missed the ball. We talked with Adam Jacob the morning of the afternoon's announcement. So we talked at like what, 10 o 'clock Jared, AM, our time central, and then like an hour or two later after the conversation, we've laid it all down, we put it on tape, and the announcement of the, well, hints of the acquisition was talked about and then the solidification of it was, I believe the very next day. We missed that ball, but yeah, I mean, that's what's happening. It's like you've got core infrastructure like Red Hat, which was essentially the definition of open source enterprise Linux and everything to open source enterprise Linux built upon. Yeah. Extracted. It sort of indicates like the general pattern for these companies when it's closed source and it's mid -cap companies acquired by PE, it's generally means the game is over and now it's just like cut it up for parts and get as much as they can. And that's, it just means it's kind of over. Like the dream has ended and I think, is that the case with HashiCorp? I don't know the answer to that, but it is interesting if the cycle of time, like the time it takes from founding of a major important piece of open source that is relied upon as key infrastructure, the time of creation to the time where it's basically like, it's not leaving nor is it going anywhere. Like it's not gonna expand nor is it gonna contract easily. So now it's just like squeeze the value out. You know, it's just, we see this with a lot of other private equity investments into other categories and looking at open source as an asset category is somewhat interesting. Like it's hard to evaluate exactly. Like there's a lot more value created by open source than captured, right? And that's a good thing. Like that makes it a public good, right? It doesn't cost me anything for you to use my open source. It costs me something to create it. So this goes coming to the third model, right? So we've got the corporate open source model. We got the PE open source, which is like, okay, you know, rug pull, extract the value, damn the torpedoes. Obviously there's little tiny individuals, but then there's this other category, which I like to think of is, you know, the volunteer fire department model of open source or the, you know, the Federation of open source. So what is this? If you are doing something with open source that benefits you and I am doing something with that same open source that benefits me and our interests are aligned, then we'll work on it together. Like we're going on an adventure, we're in the same dungeon party because we're trying to do the same basic thing. And a TinyGo is a great example of, you know, TinyGo is a Go compiler written in Go, licensed with the same BSD license that Go is on purpose because the idea is that nobody really owns TinyGo and nobody really can. The idea is that you use TinyGo to make something of value, you know, use it to build your business, take TinyGo, use it, make money, be successful and contribute back, you know, put in time, put in money. You know, we haven't had as much of that, but people are very welcome to hire hybrid group to help them or, you know, we're probably gonna introduce some paid support offerings, not as an exclusive thing. I mean, I'd like to see a dozen consultancies that have consulting practices based specifically around TinyGo implementation, not just, oh, come to hybrid group for these things, right? Because it's about letting a thousand flowers bloom. And it's also about, like, if you look at the people who actually work on TinyGo as their full -time activity, for example, there's some people at Fastly, Damian Griskey and Dan Kegel in particular, who, why are they doing that? Because Fastly's compute platform, which is web assembly system in the face, you know, running web assembly in the cloud, you know, it's really a cornerstone of their technology platform that they charge customers for. So it's in their interest to put people to work on TinyGo because it benefits them, right? They don't, we don't need the foundation. We don't need, it's more of a federation of like -minded interests. And it's a model that is a bit more sustainable only because, let's say that tomorrow I decide I don't wanna do TinyGo anymore, which I wanna keep doing TinyGo, by the way. This is just hypothetical. Or like, I just decide, that's it, delete all the repos. You know, it'd be the same as OpenTofu. You know, the internet is designed to route around blockages, you know, and no human institution lasts forever since they're made of people, right? No one's perfectly uncorruptible. Some people get tired, they have to retire, you know, do something else, do a paid job, whatever, right? The purpose is to make it so that these things are not as, you know, anti -fragile as possible so that they can withstand whatever changes occur and the core idea can keep moving on if it's of real value. So it's a different, but the only way to make this work is to be like the Wu -Tang Clan, you know, where each one of the members of the clan can go do their own recording, sign to a different record label, get whatever deal they can to get paid. They don't have to go through this centralized hierarchy. Oh, everyone's got it. Generally speaking, when like you and I had a band and we recorded and we would go to some, you know, record label. So we would sign our record deal. And then if we had a side band, we would have to sign with the same record label with that other band. We couldn't just go and do our own thing. Oh no, no, no, no. Like if we just did a side project of just recording some music on a film, they would want a piece of that as well. You know, the Wu -Tang Clan's big innovation to the music industry in part was anybody who's in the crew can go and sign with whatever record label they want. You can bring in whatever guest artists you want. You can do whatever deal you want, any deal you can. And this is sort of the same thinking that we have with the TinyGo crew. You know, anybody's free to go and take TinyGo and use it to make something of value and to make money. And that's how it's able to be sustained is because then those same companies and people put time back into it. So it's a little different than the shoot for the, you know, swing for the fences VC mentality. That's a lot, you know, why we haven't taken investors. You know, we're happy to take grants where you give money and we don't promise you anything and we don't have to give it back, right? But we're not looking, TinyGo itself is not a thing that you can only invest in it by actually rolling up your sleeves and doing the hard work or paying the people to do it. Yeah, it's like the opposite of death by a thousand paper cuts, it's success by a thousand innovations. I guess the question though in that scenario is, you know, is there a BDFL? How is stewardship operated? How are contributions accepted when you have like corporate partners or lack thereof, just participants let's say from Fastly as the example you mentioned. You know, they have an interest to advance TinyGo, I would say probably advance it in their best interests as well, how are contributions and innovations and features added or how are they, you know, approved of, what's the process to govern contribution or to veto a contribution? Is there, what's the mechanisms there? It's highly informal. Part of that is because I've seen a lot of obsession with governance that has taken a lot of time and energy and not really yielded substantial benefits. They still had massive drama and they forked the project and went off on their own and everyone hated each other and was all mad. And they had all kinds of governance documents. We can't get around, nor do we wish to get around the fact that open source collaboration was a first to human activity and the only second does it have to do with code and technology. And it really has to do with the attitude about how you wish to approach it. I think of it, you know, cause the big dictator implies a certain centralized command and control which has worked really well for certain projects. Sometimes despite that, not because of, I think, right? I look at it more that like I'm the park ranger, the game warden, you know, the curator of the museum, not the owner of the park, not the owner of the museum, right, because it belongs to everyone. You know, I'm just the steward of it to try to, like me personally, that's my attitude. And there's always the opportunities if somebody genuinely is like, we want to take it in this way. There's not a consensus for doing that. We're taking it in our own way. They should do that. Like, that's not a bad thing. Like we don't have to all, if we reach a fork in the road, there's not two brothers. This time it's actually, you know, a business decision about, you know, something or another. And I mean, TinyGo has grown into a very big thing in WebAssembly. It wasn't originally created to do that. That was an emergent property of the ecosystem. You know, and one I'm very glad for and that I'm very involved with now myself. But that was not, the original vision with TinyGo was very specifically for small embedded devices and bringing Go to the microcontroller. And then it just so happened, oh, you know, we could actually compile this to WebAssembly. There was some, you know, very nascent support in BigGo for WebAssembly at the time. And that's something that the LLVM tool chain that TinyGo is based on, not BigGo, but that TinyGo is based on. So it's like, oh, this would be a cool feature to add. You know, we should do that. No real specific, more just like, oh, it's like a low hanging fruit. Some people seem really interested in this. Well, we should do it. Next thing you know, oh wow, TinyGo is so much better for WebAssembly than BigGo. We're like, wow, it is? How interesting. Why is it better? What does it do? Like we didn't even know ourselves some of it, right? We were just genuinely like interested. It was an emergent property of the community of a problem that they wanted to solve that BigGo was not solving for them. And so a bunch of people started devoting time and energy to improving that WebAssembly support in TinyGo. And then the WebAssembly system interface, which is WebAssembly on servers, you know, and serverless, the WebAssembly not in the browser, you know, part of the fact that we were interested in it ourselves, that also we move a lot faster than BigGo. You know, we can, you know, we can innovate a lot more quickly. We haven't given a 1 .0 guarantee yet, so we can change things. You know, we're not, even though largely I would say the road to 1 .0 for TinyGo is more about the hardware interfaces than it is about compatibility with Go itself, because we've had pretty good compatibility for a while. But it was very much an emergent property of the community. And as more and more of us said, oh, wow, you know, WebAssembly, that's really a very interesting thing. We have some problems we wanna solve with that. And Go being a really good language for whatever, that this has been an aspect of TinyGo, which was not something that was part of any master plan. It's something that the community wanted, that the community is and does, and is not at all, you know, there's no need for it to be a zero -sum game. Oh, it can either be for embedded, or it can be for WebAssembly, or it could be for Linux, or for Windows, or for Mac OS. You know, that's a false dichotomy. It could be for whatever we collectively want it to be for. But again, with that sort of curation in mind, like, you know, you can share the park, but you can't just like go in and start, you know, digging it up to build your own little thing, you know, when that's interrupting the, you know, disturbing the flora and fauna of the ecosystem. And so that's where, in a compassionate, you know, kind way, but also looking at like the why. Why is this person asking for this thing? Usually it's because they either have some need, or they can't figure out how to get the thing you have right now to do the thing that they want. Either way, that's kind of on you. Like, if it's not a need that they can, if it's a need they could solve some other way, you could recommend that. If it's a thing that your software doesn't do yet, but that it could, you could mention that, and say, oh, you know, maybe you could help. Sometimes they say, oh, I don't know enough programming. Yeah, but they already took the project in a better direction just by saying, hmm, here's this thing that somebody might need. Like WebAssembly, again, a really great example. There's a lot of people who are very involved in blockchain applications. I'm not really one of them, right? I don't judge people for what they choose to do with their computational power, you know. Mine currencies, render graphics, play games, turn through large language models. This is on you, not on me. I'm just trying to create technologies that are useful. So there were a bunch of people who are using TinyGo, specifically because they wanted to use WebAssembly as part of their engine for doing their processing. And so they were looking for basically what we call WebAssembly unknown, Wasm unknown, which is sort of a naked WebAssembly. It's WebAssembly with no expectations of what the running environment would be. So for the listener, if you haven't checked out WebAssembly, first of all, do. There's lots of interesting things happening. You can run it in your browser. You can run it on serverless applications like Fermion Spin. You could use it to build plugins for your current software like Xtism, or you could use it to actually run on microcontrollers and embedded devices with TinyGo and Meccanoid. So there's all sorts of different interesting areas to do this in. So this group of blockchain enthusiasts said, we really want to run TinyGo with Wasm with no external dependencies. And the people who are doing WASI are like, oh, that doesn't sound very useful just because it doesn't have any ability to call any specific thing. And these folks were like, oh, that's okay. We don't care. We have our own APIs. So it took a while before it actually turned into something which landed in TinyGo just because it had to build a little bit of a critical mass. Just one person wants it, just one or two. They're not willing to do any programming work on it, but they'd like to have this feature. Okay, that's a signal of intent. There's maybe other people. Is it useful for other things as well? Well, yes, as it turns out, that same pattern of Wasm unknown is exactly the pattern that's being used for Meccanoid for running web assembly on embedded devices like microcontrollers. So it was not for the blockchain community sort of priming the pump of starting to think about this, then those of us who are actually interested in using that same pattern for something completely different would not have maybe worked on it and adding it to TinyGo. So again, the community is defining what the thing is because the purpose of TinyGo is to serve the community's needs. It's a means to their ends, whatever those happen to be. So I really like this Wu -Tang Clan analogy, and I'm over here just reminiscing on Wu -Tang. You can still record a disc that only one person has that's like $6 million or something. Yeah. You could use TinyGo to do it. That would be cool. Have you written down this Wu -Tang Clan form of open source and promoted as an idea? I'm sure I read it somewhere. Okay, so somebody else is doing this. Are there certain projects obviously TinyGo being one of them that lend themselves well to this form or do you think this is something that almost every open source project could adopt as a way that they go about doing things? It's like, well, we're gonna do the Wu -Tang Clan thing. We're gonna be a loosely affiliated group of people who all have similar ideals and wanna collaborate and do awesome stuff and maybe make some money like Wu -Tang. Well, first of all, you gotta have some flow. I mean, most likely you don't, okay? You know, like not every one of my songs was actually any good. Luckily, I didn't play for too many people. They were like, oh, wow, I mean, that's a really bad idea. I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, cool. You know, so. Sure. But it comes to like the thing that it is, like you're not gonna make money off your programming language, man. Like, I'm sorry, okay? You're probably not. It's just not gonna happen. You're killing my dream right now, Ron. You're killing my dream. I know. It's like all these people are like, I'm gonna make my own language and like, oh, I'm gonna be retired, like I have a mansion and a yacht. It's like, no, you're probably gonna make, not only are you gonna not make any money, it's gonna cost you a great deal of money just to even do this thing, right? Now, lots of money is made off of programming languages, okay, but it's not like the language. Not selling the language, yeah. Like nobody's getting like, oh, yeah, we sold Python. No, it's like, yeah, we made this thing with Python and we sold it for a bunch of money and wow, Python's really cool. I mean, pick a language, go, Rust, any language. Like the money is not there. The value creation is. Like it's creating enormous value. I mean, probably it's the most, I mean, I will take a giant leap and say, the singular most valuable asset on earth, which is consistently undervalued is the collective all of open source. Like how much is that worth? It is worth a lot. Like I know there was a study, I don't remember what some university they did trying to figure out, okay, if there was no open source, how much would it cost to write it all? It was like a bunch of trillions, you know, not to mention like, okay, we better get started because, you know, like we got, okay, we got $3 trillion budget, but like, how are we gonna spend it? Like it took years. You know, it's not like we're gonna like, okay, we know exactly what to do now, right? So it's an emergent phenomenon. So that does not mean that there's not ways to do it. But I think it's not like a project which is clearly part of core infrastructure for a bunch of companies is that they're not planning on selling the cloud enabled version of themselves in order to make money, right? Because that's a lot of, oh yeah, it's this cool server that, you know, does some thing. And like, you can work on it and you could stand it up yourself. Or you could use our cloud service. And then the next week, somebody's like, oh yeah, we could stand up a cloud service. And the original people are like, wait, no, not like that. Yeah, exactly. No, I think about it more like, hey, if they could do the same thing we're doing, but cheaper, we should just buy from them and resell it ourselves if we're trying to make money. You have to think about, do you care about it being from you? Do you care about it existing? Or are you trying to use it to like make a living? You know, there may be some overlap in those things, but it's not, this is not a strategy that's gonna work for every open source project. Especially if it's a thing where, you know, the cloud enabled version is the thing you're gonna sell. Like, unless you're perfectly cool with the fact that your own direct competitors are your collaborators in the project. Now, if you've got some secret sauce that you can add that you think is gonna make it better, but that can't be copied. Like, oh, our UI is so much better. Well, yeah, they can look at UI like, oh, we should do that. Like, okay, that's not enough. Like you have to have some differentiator. Either that or it needs to be very verticalized. Like it's for a particular industry. You know, go for industrial computing, go for automotive, go for entertainment, you know, go for whatever. Like verticalized as opposed to horizontalized. I was gonna let him keep going. Like how many can you come up with here? Go for what? I can keep going. I gotta pitch that too. I'm trying to think of what go for entertainment looks like, you know? Oh, I may have said too much. Well, we did not sign a non -disclosure agreement, Ron. Yeah, no, I don't sign. I mean, I'll sign them if pressed, but I've never asked anyone else to sign them. Like I respect the customs of others. So I'll be like, yeah, I'll sign your NDA. But I wouldn't ask you to sign mine. I'm like, are you kidding? Like if hearing my idea is enough to just go do it, you know, please hire me. You know? Right, right, right. I think it'd be funny to have an NDA and then come on a podcast to talk about stuff, you know? Well, yeah, that's also quite hilarious. You know, I'm like, wait, you know, come on. Please don't share this with anybody. It's literally the point. Exactly, like they're missing. But again, it's more like opportunistic using like, oh, open source, yeah. We're gonna totally like wrap ourselves in the open source flag. It's like, there is none. Like, yeah, we just wanna talk to like the open source community. There's no single open source community. There's many. In fact, one could split her into two or three or 10 at any point. And like, I mean, you actually can't, it's an algorithm. It's not a formula. You don't just substitute the numbers and now comes open source at the other end. You turn the crank and you don't really know what's gonna happen. Like anything could happen at any point. It could be magic or it could just be like, you know, we spent a bunch of time to, we redid the wheel, but our wheel is square and made of wood. And then all of a sudden, one day we saw round rubber wheels and we're like, hey, you know, we just, our project is now archived. Because.

Yeah,

exactly, no longer maintained. Like, that's it, we're done. You know, thank you, thank you, good night. Sometimes that's a relief, you know. Sometimes that's a relief. You're like, oh, a better way, cool. We can just stop this maintenance process, you know? Well, again, it's like, do you want the ego gratification of like, oh, my name's on it? Or do you wanna solve the actual problem and, you know, do something else? You know, actually, Dr. Nick Williams, he was a person who really instructed me. He gave a talk about this, about retiring open. This was many years ago, you know, and back when we were all involved in Ruby. I think he's still in Ruby. I still love Ruby, but I haven't actually used it in years. But hugs and kisses to everyone in Ruby because I think it's a really cool language and a cool world. He did a talk and he was mentioning about letting go of projects. And his metaphor was, my kids, he has a bunch of kids, I don't just have them living at home forever. I mean, eventually they have to leave and like, they go off and they do their thing or, you know, whatever. My, I was like, whatever, you know. But maybe the kids metaphor was, that was too extreme, but there was more that, you know, you don't have to maintain the project forever. Either other people will rise to the occasion or the thing will be replaced by something else. But you, it's not on you. Like there's nobody, you don't have, and if there's something genuinely better that you could actually use yourself to solve the problem you started out to use, well, you learned something and it was cool and now, yeah, move on to the next thing. You know, jump on their project and help them. Some of the contributions I'm most proud of are a single pull request I made on someone else's project where I was able to solve a problem. And I'm really proud of a project that I maintained GoCV, which is the Go wrappers around OpenCV for the same reason that there's a lot of people who've made one pull request. It was missing one thing and they were able to figure out how to find that thing was missing, what they had to do to add it, and it was successfully added. And their problem was solved and they moved on because they were trying to do a thing, not be an open source contributor. They were just trying to like, to me, that's a massive success as a collective, like we made it possible for you to solve your problem and to help the next person along the way. And yeah, it took a lot of work to do that. It's much easier to just do things directly.

Yeah, right. But

you have to be in the long game if you wanna create this sort of a sustainable, maybe I'll call it sustainable open source. It's what VCs would call a lifestyle open source. And they're using it as a, for them, it's like an insult, like, oh, that's just like. Yeah, that's an insult. Like for me, that's like, okay, cool. That means maybe I wanna be in cause I don't wanna shoot for the stars and crash into a mountain. Like I don't wanna actually crash. Plus we can actually get up that mountain so many other ways that don't involve like rocket fuel and half destroying the village that other half of the rocket lands on. We could just hike up there and with our camera and like get the shot and we're done. Well, VCs are fundamentally about the moonshots. They're trying to ride the rocket ship and then have it exit before it blows up. I mean, they're not about a sustainable lifestyle. So of course for them, lifestyle is, that's an insult, like you say. But for open source maintainers, it's all that we have because the rocket ship, I mean, you got a rug pull to get your rocket ship, right? I mean, some people started open source and made money in addition to it, but not, I don't think because of it, but for most of us, we're just trying to get - You make money off of the thing you make with it, not off of the thing itself. We're trying to get stuff done. We're trying to run a business. We're trying to help people write software and we are collaborating on the parts that we can. And that's a lifestyle, like you wanna keep doing that. Ron, you've been doing it a long time. I guess Adam and I have as well at this point. We don't wanna crash into the side of the mountain. On purpose. And we don't want anybody to. I don't want the person who maintains the dependency that I have that we run our business off of. We don't want that person to leave the internet and give up and be gone. We'd love for that person to thrive and sustain and be able to maintain that project of theirs and we'll help them if we can. Or even hang it up. Like that's okay too. Like thank you for your service. Like you've done a lot. You got us this far. We'll take it from here. You know what I mean? I really respect and admire the people who know when to do that. And it's usually we don't as a community, like we don't have the sensitivity. A lot of people don't have the, we don't talk about mental wellbeing. I don't wanna say mental health because mental health sounds like illness. Like I'm gonna use the term wellbeing only because it makes it sound more like that sustainable. Like mental illness, like, okay, you're better now. Back to the salt mines versus like wellbeing. Like I'm sorry to inform you. I'll be unable to come to work this week because I'm feeling too well. You know, I'm feeling too good this week to come to work. That sounds like a good one, yeah. You know, and not like what? Yeah. And if we were athletes, we would have like personal trainers and like team positions, you know, and they'd be like, oh, right. So we're doing Olympic level, you know, cognition. And it's like, here's a coffee and a donut, go. What, feeling burnout? No, you'll be fine. We just gotta make it through this next sprint. You know, it's just, and there's a lot, you don't wanna talk about it. Six pack of Mountain Dew, stay in the basement. Right, and you don't wanna talk about like, oh, I'm feeling stressed because that's like you as a professional athlete saying, yeah, I'm not sure about my ankle. Like, oh yeah, we're not sure about your contract then. Like, you know, good luck selling cars. You know, I was a hero last week and this week I literally have no job. Like this is, I think in people's minds and I think it's in their minds for a good reason because saying, oh, don't worry, the industry will take care of you. My industry will fire you in a heartbeat just because a bunch of investors said we have to let go of 7%. Why 7 %? Because everyone's doing 7%. Like because 7%, you know, Bondo, it's what plants crave. And you know, and you're like, no, it can't be a documentary from the future but I'm afraid it is, right? So yeah, don't tell your boss about you're not feeling good because it's too risky. This is what I think is in a lot of people's minds. And it's, I can't tell them that's not true, don't worry because I think circumstances have shown like that maybe isn't necessarily true. So what do we need to do? We need to find mutual support. Not like you can't tell, you have to have peers that you can communicate these things to and we have to build a vocabulary around it in order to, first of all, not tell the suits what's going on because they're going to be like all freaked out. Like you're trying to tell me my star player can't play? Like, no, no, don't worry, don't worry. Like they're worried, okay? Because they can't, you know, they don't even know like is this like a soccer ball, you know, football? Like, well, actually that's the same thing, sir, you know, in this country, like, wait, you know. So, I mean, this is a fundamental dichotomy between the creators, many of us who like, we like to create, we're going to create, we want to be of use, like that's our purpose for being. And like, yeah, we need to thrive and survive but we're not doing it for the sole purpose of exploitation, we're doing it because we get satisfaction out of improving the human conditions and we're human so we can be improved along the way, right? We're not just a resource to be exploited, you know, just like the brain machine, it's on the blink, I'll get some more brains, you know. How many times have you heard literally something that is the equivalent of that in management meetings? I've heard it a lot and, you know, over the course of my career and I don't generally try to single it out because that's not very effective but it is a thing that, I mean, anyone who's feeling extreme burnout, you know, definitely do seek help outside of your workplace. There are people that you can talk to about mental wellbeing, you know, and we as a technology profession need to be able to talk about this in a way that doesn't threaten our employment, you know, so that's my hot take. Yeah, well said. You know, I've been through times in the past where I had all those feelings so I, and I don't tell people usually, I'm telling everyone in the world on this podcast because I think it's important that we talk about it and it's been a long time since I had that feeling because I'd learned to recognize the signs because I did seek some professional assistance, you know, to figure out what was it that I, what was wrong with me and what could I do about it to be healthier and happier and better for it and so, you know, I'm a resource, reach out to me privately if, you know, if you need to, fellow human, I care. So that's what keeps me doing it, you know, just because I'm an idealist and I think, all right, in the end, this is going to be better than all the other alternatives, which is, you know, closedness, which is, you know, how much I can get just for me, you know, and maybe sugarcoat it with some philanthropy but when the act itself is a form of philanthropy, then it's a sustainable way to live and that, you know, ultimately, what is the technology for? You know, I think we were talking about this the last time we were in Portland at OSCON actually, you know. Yeah, 2019. Yeah, it was, you know, the purpose of technology is to improve the human condition. So, you know, that's what keeps me going. Before I let you go, I would be remiss not to bring up one of my favorite go times of all time. I want the director's commentary. You actually called in the go time from the future. I'm sure you remember this. Well, it hasn't happened yet. That episode was called 2053. I saw that episode and I was like, this is crazy. Who is this guy? Like, this guy looks just like me, but like, you know, but. You are from the future. You were calling Matt Reyer and Natalie Pestovanich to tell them all about the future of go. This is the reason why I'm making this call. I'm using all of the battery energy that I've saved for several years in order to make this transmission to send you a warning from the future. You see, I am the last go programmer alive in 2053. What? No, don't say that. And it's terrible. All I do is maintenance programming. I haven't added a new feature in over 20 years. Can you give me the director's commentary? This whole thing was your idea. I think you pitched it to Matt or somebody and you actually had this cool setup where you look like you were calling in from the future and everything else. And I just produced the episode. I had no part of the planning. I would love to hear

like,

where'd you come up with that? And why'd you do it? All right, director's commentary. So Matt sends me a message. Hey, if you want to come on go time, like, you know, today or it was tomorrow, maybe, I don't know. It's like your typical, like, oh man, we're out of guests. Like who can I think of who's like always available, you know, like, so, and the idea originally was, you know, what if we were like the product managers of Go in the future? Like, you know, it's kind of a man like idea, not that great, right? I mean, it was an idea. Okay, well, so I'm like, all right, hmm. All right, I'm gonna go over to the studio. I have a collaborative workplace called La Pipa which is where the local creative technology community get together. It's not a coworking. It's more like a collaborative space, really amazing spot, a lot of cool things happening. So we have a studio there that's set up for music recording, for streaming, all my dead program episodes that I did live from La Pipa with that. So I'm driving over and all of a sudden it hits me. I'm like, oh, I know what I need to do. It was just, you know, I don't spend a lot of time alone. Okay, when you leave me alone for a few minutes, it's really dangerous. I start thinking, like by the time I get to my destination, who knows what's coming on? So I call him over, my collaborators over at the studio. I'm like, look, I'm doing this thing. It's a pod, you know, it's a streaming from the future. I need some lasers and do you have any tinfoil? Now you have to understand, I know we've collaborated a lot together and Alex Lawton, my co -producer of the dead program streaming, you know, he's a brilliant guy, English slash Spanish. He totally gets it, all right. He's like, all right, no problem. I'm like, I'm coming in hot. Okay, cause you know, we got to do the show, right? So I get there and I, you know, we got the lasers set up, you know, in the smoke machine, you know, just cause lasers in the smoke machine featured like, you know, duh, right? So I tell Matt, look, okay, new plan. I'm gonna call him from the future, all right. And you're gonna ask me some questions and that's like, that's it. That's it, that's the whole idea. Now, Matt is the straight man in the comedy act is always interesting, right? But he gets it, right? So it just, it started going. And I had some ideas that I thought about on the way over just because it was not, it was very comedic, but I also had some very serious things to say. And if you kind of parse it and listen to it with that eye, it's a cautionary tale. And it's a genuine like heartfelt outreach to a lot of different communities about some things that I think were going on with Go and the world at the time. But like my idols, you know, Robin Williams or Eddie Murphy, you know, people who were, I mean, I know Robin Williams, I'd like to be, you know, because more lucid human being, more present, more quick -witted, you'd be hard to find another human being with that type of rapidity of thought. So, you know, these were my, somewhere between that and, you know, the old Jewish comedians, you know, take my computer, please, you know. So it just, you know, and definite, you know, hat tip to Back to the Future and some of these other, you know, tropes that formed us. Okay, these are the things that made us who we are because we were them in part and they were us. So, and it was, Matt was amazing, Natalie, they were amazing. Like it was just, it was a great moment of inspiration and I really appreciated that everybody could, you know, could go with so little information about what I was gonna do, but it came out so fantastically. I really am very grateful to, you know, all of the sources I stole from the past and the future that I stole from, you know, and all my collaborators to put it together and it's, you know, it keeps getting views. It's a, that thing is, look, until 2053, that thing is still like, we're like, let's see, you know, we still got two more years before, you know, Nostradamus is wrong, you know. I

wonder when I watched that, if it was like that short film that you see gets produced into a full on movie or something that's like a precursor to something that is at least annual or repetitive in some way that has not just one occurrence, but some sort of episodic, not so much like weekly or it needs to be a thing, but something where it's a thing you do more than just one single time. Well, I will, when is this show coming out? This show's coming out sometime in the future. This Friday, Friday. If I were you, humans of the internets, I would go to Chicago in July to the GopherCon US and I would make sure, well, first of all, go there for the community day before the whole thing starts for the hardware hack session. That is always amazing. We'll have drones, hardware, all sorts of cool stuff, right? That's during the community day. That's before, it's totally free, by the way, to go to the hardware hack session. You don't have to pay extra. You just have to have a ticket. We're not even checking your tickets, actually. Like, you know, maybe somebody is. Well, do get a conference ticket, right? But definitely be there day one of the conference because there may be a chance that something from the future may appear in the present. Well, that's still in the future. So, you know. It's the future, but it will be the present. It'll be a present. It'll be the present when the future comes then. Yes. Yes. Is this a conference conference thing, like a talk, or is this like a maybe thing at some before thing? What are you trying to say that first day? Well, the day before the conference, come to my hack session.

I

see. Okay. The day of the conference. The day of the conference, make sure you're there for the opening talk. That's all he's gonna say, though. The official announcement hasn't come out yet, so I may well have just scooped. That's all right. We like scoops. But yes. A little treat. It's going to be outrageous. I love outrageous. That's a very awesome word and a very awesome thing to be outrageous. Like many of the things I do, it will be a spectacle. Whether it's the spectacle I intend or some other spectacle is not important. I promise a spectacle, and spectacle I will deliver. There's a girl on the internet. Her name is Ali Spagnola. I don't know if either of you have heard of her, but she has a really, she's like maybe the same way you, Ron, explore and scientifically explore the permutations of all code and Geiger instruments and whatnot to check out radioactivity in the atmosphere. This thing, she's like that, but with human behavior and just humanity. She's into fitness and she eats the same thing literally every day. She's like a human science experiment. If you haven't seen her. No, I wanted to check that out, though. It'd be an absolute treat to go check her stuff out. She's just a, she makes music. She does all sorts of healthy things, fitness -related things, just like an literally outrageous type person. So she says that word a lot. It's part of her kind of core brand. And so I just thought I'd mention that because she's pretty, pretty wild if you haven't seen that before. I haven't. I don't generally use that word, actually. I'm sorry, you should do more. I mean, I spent too much time in California. I usually say awesome just because like everything's awesome,

you

know? Yeah. But this is one that I'm, it's the 10 year of Go For Con. So take something special has to happen. And well, I will do my best. Well, we appreciate you stopping by and doing your best at making an awesome episode with us. This was lots of fun. Always is, Ron. Yeah. In fact, we haven't seen you since OSCON, man. It's been that long. I miss you guys. It's been a while. We miss you too. The real world. I mean, you know, the internets are all well and good, but you know, I haven't left for another planet yet. I'm still here, you know? Not as often as I was, but I'll definitely be, I'll be at Go For Con. I'll probably be at some other stuff this year. I'm gonna try to make more of an effort. I do a lot of the European conferences. I live in Spain. So it's a lot, it's very quick and easy inside of the European Union. We gotta get to a Fosdam, Jared. You know, we haven't been, Jared and I haven't been to a Fosdam before. So I think we need to make that a priority. And I think that could be like an easy connection with Ron because you've been there three years straight. I'm sure probably even more than that, given. Oh, more than that. Actually, this was my seventh

year

in a row giving a talk at Fosdam, which is kind of amazing just because, you know. Was it, I'm - Is Fosdam in the January, February timeframe? When is Fosdam usually? It is February. It takes place at the campus of the University of Bruxelles in Brussels. It's kind of an anarchist conference. By which I mean, there's no registration. You just show up. So the organizers, the way they organize it is each room of the campus, you pitch, they take pitches for subject areas. Like there's a Go dev room, there's a Rust dev room. And once they choose the subject areas, each one of those sub -organizers is 100 % responsible for choosing the speakers, organizing them, making sure they do their thing. It's 100 % on them. The campus, they have streaming AV, you know, but that's, they just provide that running throughout the day from volunteers. You know, there's no corporate sponsors. There's, it's like a social anarchist conference. And it's really quite amazing. You know, very much a lot of people who are maintainers just show up there and hang out. The hallway track is incredible. I've never even made it in the Rust room, but I've had the most amazing conversations with people waiting to try to get in. So I highly recommend Fostem. Also the night before it begins, it takes place over the weekend, it's Saturday and Sunday. The Friday night, traditionally they have a opening party at the Delerium Brewery, which is a classic Belgian Trappist brewery famous for the Delerium Tremens ale. So there's people I would only see at that beer event, like Charles Nutter. Charles Nutter. I've known Charles for many years, yeah. And maintainer of J. Ruby, an amazing guy, super smart. Didn't expect that J. Ruby would be so successful that would take over his entire life and career. And since I'm not too involved in Ruby, the only time we would bump into each other is at the beer event the night before Fostem and the great chance to catch up on things just because he's a great guy. Our paths just don't cross because of life. So yeah, please come to Fostem. I'll try to make that happen. We'll see if we can do it next year. Yeah, all that to say is when we see you, I feel like life is just a little bit, actually a lot more better after seeing you. Like you're a joy to talk to digitally like we are right now in a podcast form via video, via the low earth orbit satellites that you're streaming from via Starlink. So thank you, Elon and those folks making that kind of stuff possible. Mr. Musk, yeah, thank you, Mr. Musk for my bandwidth. Please don't cut it off again after those last things I said. I mean, I meant them, but please don't listen. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Absolutely. Don't bite the hand. I mean, it's good to see even in this form, but like I know that when we met you, Jerry, what was that conference? Well, I think it might've been, it was GopherCon, OSCON. Was it GopherCon? It was, right, okay. At the pre -party, right? One at the pre -party, the day before the conference actually kicked off. Maybe, I don't know, a long time ago. You'll notice I love those pre -parties before the conference kicks off. Like it's almost guaranteed if there's a conference and there's a pre -party, you'll find me there. 2014, is that right, Jerry? Was it 2014? That sounds about right, yeah. It sounds so long ago. I remember being like, who is this guy? Cause you were talking our ear off on GoBot, I think at the time, or what was the Ruby one? R2? R2. Yeah. And you had like a Sphero partner, I believe that year. You had your hack day, the last day, the unofficial last day of GopherCon. That was the first GopherCon. Yeah, that was actually pretty amazing. You know, it was just, I had a bunch of hardware, not just because I had just given this talk, but because I was actually going to Berlin for another conference right from there and to do a workshop. So I had all these flight cases, full of robots from Sphero and drones, all this different stuff. And we have a day in between of travel and there was this room for the community activities, which was like nothing planned. Like there was nothing planned. It was just a bunch of people hanging out. Yeah, it was the best. It was just like open my flight cases, let people play with my toys. And the next year it was like, yeah, so you're coming for the community day for the hardware hacking? And it's like, oh, is that a thing now? Cause yes, you know, the answer was yes. I mean, you don't even have to, you have to be a hardware hack, you know. Yeah, absolutely. Well, all I have to say is that, you know, this is change like in friends. And so you are, Jared and I would consider you very much a friend. Absolutely. And I think you're an awesome human being. I love all the work you do in the community. I love just the heart you put into things. And I think that your outlook is infectious in a positive way. And I just really appreciate you coming on and just sharing like this crazy journey you take in software and just like, just dragging us with you happily, of course. But yeah, very cool. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate all of the great guests that you have, all the interesting things. You know, I learn a lot from listening and it's really fun to, you know, it's fun to chat with you and fun to share. And you know, I really appreciate the work that you're doing and thanks for having me on. Yeah, all right. Bye friends. Bye friends. There you have it. High altitude weather balloons, life on Mars, Zeno's paradox applied to machine learning, collaborating on software, the Wu -Tang way, lifestyle open source, improving the human condition and zero, yes, zero mentions of Adam's favorite TV show. What else could you ask for from this humble talk show of ours? If you dig it, tell a friend, they might dig it too. Thanks once again to our partners at Fly .io, to our beat freaking residents, the one and only Breakmaster Cylinder and to our friends at Sentry. Use code changelog when you sign up for a Sentry team plan and save yourself a hundred bucks. Too easy, right? Next week on the changelog, news on Monday, Paul Orlando's new book, Why Now? How Good Timing Makes Great Products on Wednesday and Annie Sexton back here on changelog and friends on Friday Have a great weekend. Leave us a five -star review if you want some free stickers and let's talk again real soon.