The wrong place to slap a person

change log and friends a weekly talk show about WordPress drama big thank you to our friends over at fly dot IO fly is a public cloud built for developers who ship over 3 million apps have launched on fly including us learn more at fly dot IO okay let's talk what's up friends I'm here with a new friend of ours over at assembly AI founder and CEO Dylan Fox don't tell me about universal one this is the newest most powerful speech AI model to date you released this recently tell you more so universal one is our flagship industry leading model for speech -to -text and various other speech understanding tasks so it's about a year -long effort that really is the culmination of like the years that we've spent building infrastructure and tooling at assembly to even train large -scale speech AI models it was trained on about 12 and a half million hours of voice data multilingual super wide range of domains and sources of audio data so it's super robust model we're seeing developers use it for extremely high accuracy low -cost super fast speech attacks and speech understanding tasks within their products within automations within workflows that they're building at their companies or within their products very cool so Dylan one thing I love is this playground you have you can go there assembly AI comm slash playground and you can just play around with all the things that is assembly is this the recommended path is this the tribe before you buy experience what people do yes our playground is a GUI experience over the API that's free you can just go to it on our website assembly AI comm slash playground you drop in an audio file you can talk to the play around and it's a way to in a no -code environment interact with our models interact with our API to see what our models and what our API can do without having to write any code then once you see what the models can do and you're ready to start building with the API you can quickly transition to the API docs start writing code start integrating our SDKs into your code to start leveraging our models and all our tech via our SDKs instead okay constantly updated speech AI models at your fingertips while at your API fingertips that is a good next step is to go to their playground you can test out their models for free right there in the browser or you can get started with a $50 credit at assembly AI comm slash practical AI again that's assembly AI comm slash practical AI

I

never know stirred the term eavesdropping because this is more like eaves picking stuff up I only know of eaves is like the ceiling things like the roof things so you're dropping stuff off the Eve maybe that's why it's like they drop it and you pick it up I don't know the weird word eavesdropping yeah let's see what chat GPT has to say about this the term eavesdropping originates from the practice of listening to conversations from outside the house so you're typically by standing under the eaves

okay

the part of the roof that overhangs the walls to catch the sound of conversations on the inside that would be eaves catching I don't disagree with you on the eaves catching the eaves hoping they drop something the word eavesdrop itself comes from Old English which I can't pronounce Y F E S D R this E with maybe an año and an P and an E afterwards which refer to the water that falls from the eaves of a house so maybe it's like the

that

water drops so Nick had the eaves down that was exactly what the reference is I thought it was maybe the female rapper from the late 90s Eve do a wrap do a wrap I'm down well when Eve would drop things she was also eavesdropping she was dropping she would drop bars though not raindrops I'm just thinking of Enya I can't think of

can't

think of Eve no she's quite a bit more hardcore than Enya and so far she's an actual rapper and then he has more of a what's her genre I see here I thought you're talking about Eve from the Bible I don't even know who these people are I'm so non cultured did listen to Enya in religion class I remember that nice did you yeah did it does she turn the lights off and mm -hmm light some incense and say a little meditation thing oh oh my god stop Nick can't stop Nick karaoke machine that's the name of the show Jared Nick karaoke machine when's the last time in karaoke Nick Amsterdam tell him your favorite song that react summit Amsterdam I know his favorite song it's Prince don't don't let him say it okay go ahead Nick

well

Jared and then you have to sing it a little bit okay my favorite one because it's it's memorable and it's quick it's only like two and a half minutes and it's fun because there's no way that I can sing this properly and that is kissed by Prince because it's all falsetto mm -hmm and it just like starts off with like and then you just like immediately go into it and you just immediately drop down and you're like you don't even have to scream it like you can just be like you just like go from there that is a good song and you're never embarrassed by that because you can't achieve Prince love anyway so why be embarrassed right exactly and you know your best yeah and you're going and making an ass of yourself and it's it's wonderful and then you can like I think that that primes you for like conference speaking and talking on a podcast like right just make an ass of yourself or karaoke by yourself with no music on a podcast like I couldn't possibly embarrass myself more than I already have karaoke so yeah that's true I'll just go on a podcast there's no limit to my embarrassment I can I can go lower for sure what's your second favorite song oh I've got depends on the mood and like the the mood of the room for sure okay read the room you got to read the room you got to work the room to you really like you got to have a wireless mic you know if there's a pool table you got to be up on the pool table you're more about the show than the song yeah you

got to go to a random like the the person who looks the most uncomfortable being there and just like get down on one knee and just belt it right into their face get them into it or not ash and you know you get you get everybody on your side that way or you get punched in the face yeah yeah if you're trying to pee we Herman move you know get up on the bar and dance who not yet that would be amazing mm -hmm I haven't been to like a setup that has that though like the bar hold on hold on hold on now my phone get your phone out of here yeah

get

out of your phone throw it just throw it just chuck it across I've got two of them I just threw where are we on a podcast or somebody did that chair they chuck their foot across the room I for some reason that's like a memory of my brain yes I can't remember who I know I threw mine on the couch last week somebody just chucked it across the room they're like it won't stop that's right I think it wasn't cuz it was buzzing is cuz it was ringing like it wasn't what Nick just did uh okay Nick continue you got two phones Nick no let's stop is this like a daytime phone nighttime phone thing so you're always on offense like that one yeah pretty much I have a work phone and a personal phone which I just upgraded to the 16 Pro Max oh wow the camera control but you must have large pockets I do I

have

such large pockets the max huh those things are big it got bigger this year did it really by shrinking the bezel I think okay so same overall size probably roughly but yeah shrinking the bezel so it is a slightly noticeably larger like reaching my thumb up to the the top side

hmm

my work phone is a 14 Pro so the smaller one and so like it was nice I had both of them just to kind of compare and like I just like the screen real estate of the pro max I've kind of like I have an iPad Pro and I kind of like don't use it anymore just cuz I don't know it doesn't fit my lifestyle yeah I had multiple iPads and I discarded them all or gave them away eventually cuz they again I just never used them it's like I have a laptop and a phone and there's really not much room in my life for something in between mm -hmm but I'm rocking the 14 Pro as my daily driver as my singular phone although I am playing on upgrading cuz I'm on every other year upgrade cycle but this is probably the first time where I was like do I need to go every other year because this phone I have is pretty stinking fine I don't know you you have two fewer buttons than I do that's right you have two new buttons so there's a camera control and then the action button

mm -hmm now

of those two I feel like why why the action button it just does one thing right it can do one thing or many things depending on how crazy you want to be do you push it differently for each thing or no actually I don't like that you have to like push it push and hold I think yeah to get it to do whatever you program it to do the long presses back yeah but you can set it up to like for on my 15 I had it set up to open the camera because it was a nice and easy way to quickly and reliably get into the camera don't need that now yeah I got a whole dedicated button for that so I have it set right now because I'm an old guy I guess to the flashlight oh the flashlight yeah I just launched them on your computer but you can like through the magic of shortcuts you could set it to run a shortcut which could do some logic like oh it's you know you're at home and it's 3 30 p .m. so that means you probably are at work and you want to run this action and oh it's 7 p .m. you're at night it's at night and you're off work and you you know want to turn on you turn on Enya like you could have it set to do any of that right like at what time of the day should it just start kiss by Prince you know like 9 30 p .m. it's just that song 7 30 a .m. and that's the wake -up song don't stop till you get enough by Michael Jackson is my wake -up song really yeah I downloaded that as a ringtone like forever when ringtones were things that you would seek out and download right that one time in life yeah now it's my alarm sound like for waking up at 5 a .m. don't you hate that song though yeah

that's

the problem that's why you never set your favorite song to wake you up because you end up hating it I haven't gotten enough yet I don't stop till I get enough well let us know you get had enough I'd like to know be a good social experience experiment I'm with you though Jared on this every two years and now I'm like ish cuz I don't feel like what made me upgrade last time was what my phone had a scratch on it mm -hmm it was just driving me crazy and then I felt FOMO of the island

so

yeah the prior funds cool it is cool and anytime there's a major UI update that only a subset gets which is the new obviously in most cases I just felt like I was missing out don't you have Apple intelligence FOMO because that's there they're limiting it to the new ones mm -hmm I don't know I don't know if I do I feel like you know I wouldn't mind playing with it I suppose but at this point no at this point there's not much especially if you're this point it doesn't it's not there yet right well I was running the beta on my 15 and I decidedly did not want to run the beta on my new phone mostly because like I just want to experience like what's this phone like when it achieves its full battery potential because like on the 15 Pro Max I was like

I

was at zero by like 4 p .m. every day and I wasn't doing really with it so it was just like draining constantly

but

terrible yeah the Apple intelligence features that it had which were still limited were pretty awesome like the the summary of like text messages I could ignore a text thread all day and guess a quick summary and it was kind of comical sometimes mm -hmm are you getting FOMO at him is it working no I think something you know we're in that camp of like you know summaries is still the the killer feature for most AI related things I think especially that context

I don't

know honestly I feel like if I saw it in practice maybe I think maps would be fun like take me somewhere I think Siri upgrades with voice would be where I would get FOMO and if that's what intelligence brings which I'm not even closely paying attention I feel like it's purposefully not paying attention to the details of their announcement so that I don't get this FOMO yeah but I talked to my phone a lot and I wish that's the part I would be getting FOMO about you know the intelligence of that speaking to something that's tangible it can do like take me somewhere that's the killer app isn't it it's better Siri that's what this thing is is selling yeah it's at least it's not quite there like the the better Siri there yet though well they haven't really released it yet right no I'm talking about the beta and I'm not writing that anymore but on the beta like the one nice thing is you do get the new animation for Siri which is cool but then you also get like it holds some context so I can be like you know how old is this actor on TV and then I can say oh what movie did they start and I don't have to say like their name again it remembers from the previous question but I'm still in the context of that yeah that's important there's dumb things that I chat GPT cuz who Google's these days for example I was reminding myself how many ounces was in the court and so rather than and I don't know if Siri would answer that one correctly maybe she would maybe she wouldn't it's hard to tell on that you're 16 or 32 16 well yeah I think 32 is in a court a pint I believe is 16 you're gonna have to go ask again I'm happy glass I knew is one of those two but off the top of my head I wouldn't know I think it's 32 but I opened up a tab on mobile no actually I opened up the app the chat GPT app and asked the app and it's like this ephemeral question you don't ever want to go back to as a chat so that's kind of the thing I wouldn't mind the Apple intelligence the phone level to give me those little quick hits it's like math but but harder you know it's not like 2 plus 2 it's how many ounces is in the court it's not exactly like math that's harder than math well it might be easily fetchable but it's not like 2 plus 2 that's no that's also a pretty basic math right

I

would say complicated maths than that well it's words right yeah I don't know if Siri has that let's let's let's test let's test Siri right now I don't have Apple intelligence how many ounces are in a court

it's

32 fluid ounces drilled it just wasting my time talking to chat GPT in that house she's already smart enough that one's probably like embedded in RAM you know ask that to Shay I just asked raycast and not recast AI I just typed into the raycast thing one quart and then and yeah exactly what it was

well

that's all I mean that whole deal the look -up table like one person coded that thing one time and it's just some sort of thing that just lives in memory

on

every device in the world you know for everyone whoever needs to know that's the kind of stuff that humans ask all the time I mean I can't remember that stuff I did see a video today that like I can't speak to the validity of it and I do have chat GPT Pro but I don't have the advanced voice thing that they have right they announced that forever ago and yeah where you talk to it like her yeah

I

still don't have that scar Joe someone else specifically someone else now

it's

specifically somebody else but I saw a video on Twitter today of somebody using that to tune their guitar and so mmm chat GPT was like you know we're gonna tune this string first and it sounds like this and then he plays it and he's like how about that and she's like no go a little like tighten it a little bit more and then no way yeah that's cool okay that's cool that is cool oh wow speaking of voice impersonations and scar Joe oh gosh just left adjacent to scar Joe is a guy named Jeff Geerling have you heard about this I saw him post on Macedon about someone using his voice but I didn't read it okay is that what you're gonna talk about I'm gonna reference it at least I'm gonna lightly talk about it let me see if I could pull up the information quick enough Jeff Geerling for those who don't know is a home lab or YouTube what's his particular he's a youtuber he's been on the pod oh it's I would call him an open -source developer I call him a developer I would call him a home lab er what's his his channels more about hardware and stuff though yeah but he's got roots in the Python community in Django and he definitely has tons of open source out there too anyways keep going yeah I think it's just Jeff Geerling I don't think it's named anything anyways there's a company called elcro to my knowledge they have several videos out there and I say several it's more than one I think it's probably ten or so potentially and he's like this some I think somebody told him about it somehow he found out and he shared a video on his YouTube channel which we can link up in the show notes highlighting the fact that he's like does this sound does this voice sound familiar and he plays it and it sounds just like him just like him mm -hmm and so not that I've got a cool voice or Jared you got a cool voice but our voice is out there a lot I'm wondering when I'm gonna get scarred out oh you want this to happen to you I don't I don't think I want that but like is it gonna happen we have influential voices I mean I don't know you know how this works I mean I know how it works technically I don't know how it works in the way that you're talking about it

all

I know is somebody's gonna put out there and finish that song Nick Nissi started that's right in the Nick voice mm -hmm just the falsetto the Prince falsetto seeing the whole thing well I do think it would be cool to tune a guitar like that yeah that's super cool actually I mean that's that's a good example of tomorrow's tech today I got that sounds like a corporate advertisement well I mean a lot of people see it is like this is here and it is and that's cool I prefer to just hand the guitar to the robot and say will you play kiss by Prince so I can sing this falsetto mm -hmm like that's what's really here it's like you go to a restaurant and it's advertised you know maybe these are gonna $5 cover at the door live music tonight Nick Nissi and you go to this restaurant and you sit down and you look up on stage and there's nobody on stage just a couple of laptops and they're they're hardwired into different instruments and those they just start playing songs you know taking requests and then get down on one knee and somebody and sing right in their face I don't know it's gonna be weird it's getting weird oh no except for sure yeah if I watch that too that's the problem is we're so easy we're like this is dangerous and crazy and it's like but I would totally participate you know are we just kind of along for the ride this whole way that's the problem right how can we stop it like I don't know there there was also I didn't read about it or I didn't read the post but I think there was a post by Sam Altman this week about like we're like a thousand days away from super intelligence or something like that yeah I don't really believe anything he says I agree I agree but like Elon Musk and then we'd be self -driving by yeah 18 months from totally and he's completely invested in that being true yes and so highly motivated to say it's gonna be true pretty soon

yes

yeah I like if it is true like let's assume that we are that close like there's nothing we can do to stop it and there's no no one like like I don't know it could just be devastating like already we've put out all of the the guitar tuning apps they're they're gone we don't need them anymore right we don't need the right there's like we're just slowly going down this market until

unless

they evolve though I mean that's just one application the thing I don't like about chat GPT is not what it does it is its interface I you know in the web version of it you can't star things and like use it as a resource you go back to for continued intelligence development for yourself I think the and maybe that's where other client applications apply where it's like you're an interface an API away from a better chat GPT I feel like that's where the where the tuning app that is not evolved can evolve right yeah because it doesn't have to dies just moves like Jared said a couple times it's about changing your spot on the value chain did you say it Jared what's your what's your sound bite dude it's about changing your spot on the value chain that's my paraphrase version of it you guys you got to move around the value chain it's not gonna move up you can't move up you can't go down or sideways it's got to be up you can't stagnate you have to be more valuable higher up this reminds me I just read Charlie in the Chocolate Factory with my daughter and you know her dad was like he was like putting tooth the the lids on toothpastes oh yeah and like then times changed and he had to evolve to be the repairman for the robot that does that but what he finds end and just putting the toothpaste on the bottle the lid on the bottle

there's

other ways to find Zen yeah

there's

many roads to Rome they could do it in the spare time for free just you can brush his teeth a lot just take the thing off brush his teeth put it back on

you

know the cleanest teeth in the world and that's why I still write typescript things it's more like it's more like flossing isn't it I mean typescript is always going the extra mile is it not it's just table stakes now you must like typing not that not not types but like literally I do like types could you type a whole bunch more than I do and we accomplished the same thing just with regular JavaScript over here correct yes absolutely close my case but do I type more or do you like when you go fix all of your type errors later on I don't do that part okay yeah next type errors how am I gonna know about them

okay

we're here in the breaks I'm here with Feras a book DJ founder and CEO of socket that dev so Feras you put out this fire post recently on X and I'm a paraphrase you say the XZ package backdoor was just the tip of the iceberg give me just a peep behind the scenes of this incident and what you mean by it's just the tip of the iceberg yes I think the XZ utils backdoor was really eye -opening to a lot of developers it showed the vulnerability of the open source ecosystem you had this maintainer who had been tirelessly maintaining this package for 15 years who was targeted by nation -state actors who created like literally it's like a spy movie right they had multiple personas fake personas that were contacting this poor maintainer and you know working on him psychologically to convince him over the course of two years to add them to the repository and give them publish permissions and they did this through us through a bunch of kind of negative messages but also by being helpful and by sending good positive requests it's really like I like I really think it's out of like out of a spy movie just kind of a level of effort that they put into this and what they were able to do is get access to this package this is built into pretty much every Linux server out there and what this would have let them do is it will let them SSH into any server and run any command on the server without knowing the password without being authenticated to the server so this would have been like a world ending potentially kind of an attack right it would have it would have been probably the worst attack we've ever seen I'm not exaggerating it could have been that bad but we were lucky through a total accident this backdoor dependency had made it into the beta builds of some popular Linux distros but it hadn't made it all the way out to stable version yet and a developer who is testing out the beta versions of these Linux distros noticed some some weird weird behavior he noticed that his SSH connection was taking half a second too long and so he he pulled the thread and traced it back to this this backdoor dependency and we were we were all saved because of this total accident it's mind -blowing to me in a couple for a couple reasons like one obviously like wow there's still there's there's literally states out there countries that are that are trying to target open source now clearly there's like a team behind this they probably didn't just work on this one dependency they were probably working on getting access to many other ones in parallel if you just look at the time between the emails they sent to the maintainer they were about a month between some of these emails so they were probably working on other maintainers and trying to get access during that time so that's really scary I also think it's pretty scary to see kind of the fact that it took an accident to find the attack it makes me think like how many have we not caught as a community how many have we missed if this one was caught by a total accident it was eye -opening to a lot of people and it made people realize that there really is a threat in the open source ecosystem and it's not because most people are bad it's the opposite most people are good but there are few bad actors out there taking advantage of the trust in the system that's really where we come in we're trying to give every company the tools to protect themselves from those types of attacks and that's what we do at socket okay friends go to socket that dev security dependencies socket is on the front lines of securing the open source ecosystem their developer first security platform that protects your code from both vulnerable and malicious dependencies install the github app or book a demo again socket dev that's SOC K ET dot dev and by our friends over at super bass here in the breaks I'm here with aunt Wilson CTO over at super bass so ant I know our listeners know a lot about super bass but

who are you so I'm a CTO at super base and so I care a lot about the platform whether it comes to uptime security availability but I'm also extremely passionate about bringing super base to more developers okay

so bringing postgres to more developers I'm a big fan of that we love postgres here at change log a lot of developers feel like the main choice or a primary choice for them is Amazon Web Services AWS right no one gets fired for using Amazon Web Services but super base is build no weekend scale of billions what's your vantage point on this as CTO super base when

I started in my career AWS was kind of like new and shiny and it was so cool that you could go to this website and spin up infrastructure and then they give you all the tools to manage it you can drop into the console you can kind of do whatever you want and you pay for it on a usage basis if you use a little bit you you get a little bit if you use a lot you pay a lot the expectations of developers have raised since then and I think will continue to be raised because I no longer want to manage my own infrastructure I don't want to drop into the console every time I get an additional 10 ,000 users on my platform to tweak the knobs and make sure that the service is still up oh by the way I've now got to go and make adjustments to the API gateway to allow for a new geography or whatever it is I don't want to do that stuff I want to concentrate on building the cool stuff that I imagined the night before and I think just giving people the ability to focus on the cool thing you want to build and not have to worry about the infrastructure anymore is kind of the promise of super base that will change in the future as well you know now you have to write your schemas like you shouldn't have to do that in the future again just focus on the cool thing that you want to build

well super base is open source you can self host it if you want to it is postgres for life it is open source for life authentication instant API's edge functions real -time subscriptions storage vector embeddings thanks for AI it's got it all and no servers managed by you just build your app build on a weekend scale to billions as you grow learn more about their recent launch week at super base comm slash launch week or go to super base comm and get started once again super base comm that's su pa ba se comm

well

AI is is crazy mm -hmm I am NOT to summarize I'm not yet phone mode by Apple intelligence well wait till I get it on my hands and start showing you cool stuff it's doing for a few months just don't get it before ATO maybe now is a good time to mention we got some free passes we're gonna do what we're gonna be there again correct all things open all things open this is a staple for us we love talking with the team

I'm

trying to encourage Adam Jacob to come there even though he wasn't planning to come there just to go eat steak with us Jared okay I mean I could say more but that's that's all I'm gonna say all right so you're gonna say I have experienced eating steak with both of you and it is intense right recommend we don't mess around stay together at where were we that conference that cough you went to that confident Wisconsin didn't you know did how was it

it

was a lot of fun bigger it was bigger yeah I think and yeah it definitely was bigger it was more fun I had my family there that time so right on they had like a pool party thing they like after the the water park closed to the public they reopened it just for that conference which was awesome that's cool shoutout to Clark cell who runs that conference the organizer of it he always pushes back on that and says it's me and other people a lot of people are part of the front of that conference but it is literally called that conference it is all caps th 80 conference speaking of which now is a good time to to let you guys know that at that conference in Wisconsin Clark I just happened to have a solid -state drive and Clark gave me the recording from January so no way yeah we can finally publish that episode I've asked I was like okay we're not gonna get it was it Danny Danny was Danny right Danny Thompson we interviewed him on stage yes and then that was that that was that so he gave it to you just cuz you're friends with us basically he was like oh do you do you want this and do you have a means of taking this very large file and I just so happen to have a two terabyte drive with me and I was like yeah let's let's do it and then I forgot to tell you guys hilarious he gave you our proprietary intellectual properties what you're saying yes and I reposted it under my name and no trained trained some voice LLM's on it we might actually need to just do a redo on the Danny Thompson thing yeah I feel like at this point shipping that show is probably not gonna happen although it was pretty good yeah let's listen back to it we'll see you actually like it cuz sometimes we listen back and we're like that was better than I thought other times we listen back we're like that was worse than I thought

and

we did jazz danger there on stage only half of it was recorded and it was a great show man that was a great episode actually it came down to the final question and I could get it and I think the final answer was something hilarious like it was Thunderbird I think Thunderbird like the final answer was Thunderbird the male client Thunderbird yeah the male client and I mean the crowd went crazy I thought this is a award -winning episode of front -end feud not JS danger front end feud

which

is our family feud style not our jeopardy style game and then I went to the well now we're gonna start maybe we should stop here because we're gonna start complaining but no no did he give you that did he give you that file too I went up to the guys afterwards and I'm like though the guys who are running the AV right there like that was so awesome can't wait to turn it in an episode he goes oh you wanted to record that and I was like you gotta be kidding me yeah like there was a big plan podcasters always be recording that's our whole thing ABR ABR man so today for the first time in a very very very very long time I opened a park just because just because I was like well I got to talk about a browser that isn't Safari and so I've been in meetings recently I've like screenshare with folks and they're sharing their stuff with me and they're navigating around and give me demos and stuff like that sure and at least a couple occasions I was like what's that browser it was arc it's kind of cool yeah that's that's it that's it I still can't I still can't use it though why not it's such a departure from standard web browser that it I don't know how to use it I gotta retrain my brain how to use a browser believe it yeah yeah that's about it I mean that's the reason it's just like VIM it's enough change take that back right now I mean like for somebody who hasn't VIMed I haven't totally worth it though but for someone who hasn't and they're intimidated or they have imposter syndrome I can understand why it's challenging to get over that hump to to even be comfortable in them and so I would say that arc or a browser that is uniquely different like it is has similar characteristics of the challenge that VIM has to capture users and whichever that hump maybe you're like I'm sweet it's great I get it but for me it's like well I just can't get past this departure it's hard I would say that's true for any life -changing tool

like

VIM or I wouldn't necessarily say arc but arc does have a lot are you saying arc is life -changing no no okay and in fact you I think it's funny that you came in right as they had like a critical CVE yeah they had a they had something last week wasn't it yeah what was the CVE spill the beans they could like do they could like execute code on your machine without you even visiting a website to like initiate it who's they the the people attacker and it was bad the bad folks yeah it was I didn't read it exactly but I know that it was like some vulnerability through Firebase or something that like yeah mr. Firebase but I don't use it anymore unfortunately or for me

I

just don't like Chrome and it seemed like a better chromium to use but agreed yeah I still use brave as my better chromium for now brave browser is just I mean it just is what it is you know it's basically rip out the Google parts and replace it with crypto parts though I mean none of that stuff is on by default like there's a VPN button that I don't use there's crypto things that I don't use I do think the idea of the bat token was interesting but you don't have to use any of that and it's just like Chrome minus the Google bits and honestly I use it for Riverside and for development and that's it mm -hmm so same I do want to clarify just because we put this security mention out there I pulled up the CVE the CTO Hirsch I believe of the browser company the makers of the arc browser on August 25th there was an incident and a fix was out the very next day the loop to be closed is not the details of it but that they say no arc members were affected by this vulnerability they did an analysis of their Firebase access log so there's they use Firebase to deploy certain and use certain features inside of the our browser and so they trolled there I guess they combed trolled is probably bad yeah they comb their Firebase access logs and confirm the no creator IDs had been changed outside those changed by the security researcher so TLDR at least on the breach is there was no vulnerability there was a vulnerability but no is

no

one was affected by it yeah I'll link this up in the show notes that's good and that I definitely I brought it up because it was topical but I don't think it's a reason to not use our I don't use it anymore because I'm forced to not use it anymore at work why is that because it's not Chrome and Chrome has enterprise tools that don't ship in chromium apparently so you have to use Chrome by dictate he's not it's head by the way yes

I said yes and then he said

yes has a dramatic pause for our listener but for us as we saw you nod your head and he smiled while doing it is

the

browser company vc -backed gosh I don't know what's that website that's like tech crunch but it's just for like crunch base crunch base is that where you would find that information mm -hmm if chat GPT is to be believed then yes they have raised significant funding including a 50 million dollar round at a 550 million dollar evaluation Google's also correct I googled that crunch base also seems to confirm it mm -hmm we all did three different things to find that information which means it's pretty reliable right unless two are using the one source and they're just which they probably are crunch base is probably the source and Google and chat GPT are probably scraping that but chat GPT gives the links to reddit and tech crunch okay well crunch base and tech crunch are like the same people I think could be wrong about that so that gives me pause in general with browsers I'm I'm I'm gonna stick with Safari until ladybird can be used as my daily driver and apply switch to ladybird as well even if it can have be my development and I'll swap brave for ladybird and then eventually hopefully Safari for ladybird but I think if I'm gonna have like a large corporate entity that either is vc -backed or hat or publicly traded or whatever I'm just gonna stick with Apple because I feel like their incentives for now are pretty well aligned with mine as a as a customer of theirs and you know the browser company I appreciate that they're out there innovating and trying to do new stuff but for me personally I just feel like there's so many pressures on a company like that when things aren't going hockey stick in the way they have to that there's incentives to compromise my side of the equation for theirs yeah I don't know I don't disagree with that sentiment but when I logged into arc I saw some features I believe that were in like I think it's like this enable max feature and I don't know all this stuff what it does and Nick's not in his head again which I like I like when you do that Nick and it you know I mentioned this when we talked to Chris Wanstroth and Andreas when we're talking about ladybird was I think if we can incorporate I think Safari's done some base level security things and I believe for the most part Apple has my privacy in check maybe for everyone else maybe not so much for them maybe they're using a lot of my data but at least they're at least not giving it away to my knowledge right the repairs a whole different issue will can that for now but I feel like maybe this max enable max thing that arc has might be things like what the pie hole does in the browser like different security things you can do and different features that make sense that would be a paid feature and that would be a for -profit company or at least to come to the ones that make money to sustain even if it's not for profit could be public good company I think when you raise money though we've seen that chat GPT was you know opening I was once open and now they're not open so there can be a rug pull even in venture capital land the part I may disagree about a little bit I'm still the jury's still out on this for me is that while I'm not an art user I can appreciate a browser trying to be sustainably capitalistic and deploy features that are paid that I may want and may use the browser so I can pay for them because they're not anywhere else or I have to cobble together some self -hosted stuff which is kind of cool if you're into that but if you're not then making that readily available to the masses for ten bucks a month or some fee may be kind of cool I don't know but it's something like that it's like ask on page five second previews tidy up tab titles tidy downloads like these are things that seem to be free so I could be misspeaking about these being paid features there's a subscription model here though you're saying well I think there's room for one because I speculated with ladybird there could be some sort of subscription model to sustain it there's definitely room for the browser carrying more about security and privacy and the incumbents Chrome Google has had a bad reputation for user privacy Apple has been on the fence of privacy focused but then they also have lots of things that are behind the scenes that get spoken about their practices that that may be somewhat true or mostly true and I still trust Apple I'm not distrusting Apple what I'm trying to say is I think there's room for a browser to do stuff like this as a business model that isn't just here's a Firefox clone or Chrome clone or a Safari clone and we're a new company sustain us where they can deliver more innovation I think insofar as they've done with the browsing experience which is the jarring part that I've said that's hard for me to cross that chasm there's room for features in my opinion yeah I think that there's a lot of like really cool things in arc that are like UI level fundamental changes to the way that you would browse specifically the things like a split view being able to split into three different panels and view things side by side that's really awesome having the the tab bar on the side and hideable and then like having you can swipe between multiple tab bar so like when I was using it every project that I was working on had its own tab bar and I could just leave those tabs open and then I wanted to go work on something else I switch over to that one and go really nice and you could rename tabs too so you know the 40th Google sheet that you open you can rename it to be something memorable so that you can actually get back to it and that was all just like really cool stuff this max stuff I have turned off completely and that's because it's all just AI stuff it's you want to search for something and the page it will generate a page that cobbles together a bunch of stuff from around the internet into one page for you or it'll do like smart things about tidying your tabs or renaming them or things like that all of that a is not all that useful when like it's just saving me one or two steps which I could just do on my own when I need them but then also like it kind of muddies things up because like a lot of companies don't want these AI features in they don't want them bleeding into to the workplace because they don't know how to control their data with that and when it's built fundamentally into the browser like that then companies can overreact and be like we're just gonna block that browser completely yeah it's a lot of yeah I hate yeah and like it's it's I'll say something potentially controversial I don't think that it's all that valuable for them to be delving into this because they absolutely need the VC money to be able to sustain the AI pieces especially because it's not as far as I know it's not paid right now like it's a free feature for everyone that stuff's not free and it's not profitable it's not even profitable to the companies that are doing the AI like copilot copilot is like a massive loss last time I heard like for for Microsoft or github like it cost them like $30 a user and they pay I pay like $10 a month for that and like it's just not that that profitable because it's so intense to train these models yeah I misspoke assuming that max was paid it is not paid although there's room for it a version of this to be cooler than than this AI stuff and be paid and sustain and potentially profit yeah I mean that's that's what I'm not seeing is like where is the business model here yeah and when you don't see one and you see 50 million plus dollars raised and you see them going for it's free free free free I just think the long -term ramifications of all those things usually end poorly the end user and so that's why I'm skeptical but I mean I would love for them to have a pay plan right now like where and maybe they've talked about it and it's just not out there like they're going to do that with max

I

was skeptical of switching to raycast when it was all free because like it was like how I don't want to like build up my workflow around you and then you die because you couldn't sustain yourself and then I have to write go crawling back to Alfred but spotlight man it's right there it's it's true

raycast

does so much though it's so nice but yeah like once they had that and it was for pretty simple features like I have more than one Mac I'll sync between those that that's totally worth it for me and they have some AI stuff which is pretty nice too like that's probably my primary interface into all of these chatbots is like through the raycast interface for that but it's also something that you can completely ignore if you don't want to use it do you have the the AI feature then he's nodding his head again Nick stop nodding your head I'm just kidding with you yeah I love this AI stuff I use it I I think it's a feature they could push further into I talked to Thomas one of the co -founders and the CEO of raycast on a podcast you can listen to episode 587 come back a little bit changelaw .fm slash 587 and I'm an advocate for them turning this into a full -on not in raycast chat app that's like an AI chat app because you can interface with all the models you can easily switch you can favorite them you can search them there's room to unify the world of AI chat into a single application and I feel like they could they do that with with raycast but it obfuscates it because it's like within this raycast world and you kind of have to adopt raycast to get the chat app and it's like a sub app of it it doesn't have a full native I mean it has a full native app experience but there's some unique non native UX that comes with it and if they made it a dedicated application I think they could dominate like be the single interface for all of AI chat well let me use this opportunity to mention a tool that I found called enchanted enchanted is an iOS and Mac OS app for chatting with private self -hosted language models such as llama 2 3 .1 as well mistral like kuna using o llama and so this is open source I've been using it for a while it's unified chat switch your model up in the corner I don't know it actually has a chat TPT option where you can just put in your open AI API key because it's all about the open source side of things but that's a good one well -written I've been using it I enjoy it and so check that out unless you are chat TPT for life because it is a llama based it looks really good and I think llama 3 is good enough that I only use chat TPT now on my phone because I don't have this on my phone so I'll go to this and it answers I would say 9 out of 10 things sufficiently the other time I'll use chat TPT in the browser is when I want to use the dolly features and have it generate images but for just asking my computer questions

and

chance it's a pretty good option which I think is probably similar to what you're thinking of with this broken breakout chat app for raycast for sure so there's a go that's a cool one even as I look at the screenshots what I like about it is when you go to the get a repo it has the link to the App Store download on the App Store which is this is a Mac app mm -hmm and as I'm going through the screenshots it has similar characteristics I mean how much different can you make a chat app really so I'm not even knocking them necessarily but like it has similar characteristics of what I like about raycast AI chat mm -hmm and Thomas if you're listening to this show or anybody from your team's listening show you may be doing this already but gosh strike the goal while it's hot be the single application and I guess maybe enchanted might have a leg up because they what's the license alv2 Apache license version too so yep liberally licensed open source permissively licensed open source what's the better way to say that you're permissive I think liberally permissively they're probably interchangeable to some degree yeah I'm sticking my guns great job enchanted and whoever's behind this August dev fantastic work

this

is free you just yeah what do you do to get access to that you have to have like a token is right no so this is like a interface for Ollama and Ollama is a open source project that will run these different llms that you have the models downloaded on your machine and so if you look at the repo for enchanted it'll say things like you must have Ollama running first and so there's a little bit to do there mm -hmm it doesn't actually embed or download the models for you so a lot really cool as well so you're running a llama as like a home lab thing then just on my laptop yeah well it's not really home lab it's just exactly what home lap it kind of is it's it's single machine home lab that's my can be it's my work computer my computer is my only computer I'm running it here on my laptop and so there's a I can't remember how I installed a llama probably brew install a llama brew install yeah and then I pick mistral 3 .1 latest or sorry llama 3 .1 latest not mistral in enchanted and llama is running oh llama is running as a service on my laptop that starts when my laptop starts and so enchanted talks to that back end this would be a good chance for you to mention your post on LinkedIn which is where I learned about this I actually learned a lot of things about you on LinkedIn Jared if you didn't know

I didn't

know that you mentioned your stack for I think it was a llama and I think it was enchanted at the time it was it something different do you recall this like maybe three weeks back you mentioned your stack for you're removing chat GPT and you're moving to something else I was using it from the command line at the time okay just talking into my command line I can't remember I had a tool for that or llama provides a command line UI oh I think I found a TUI oh yeah I'm gonna quote you you mind oh cool yeah I like this llama 3 .1 is good enough to ditch chat GPT as my daily LLM driver current toolkit oh llama yep and enchanted also interested it's something else like a TUI or whatever so maybe I was a two -year mentioning so it was enchanted at the time it was yeah I didn't think it was that was a month ago so you're 30 days ahead of this podcast mention I love it so to summarize you have a Mac app installed that speaks to Oh llama running locally on your machine not on your network on your machine right can you network Oh llama and make enchanted just be like the network driven like everybody who can install enchanted is that a possibility yeah like if you go to the enchanted settings the first thing it asks you for is an Oh llama server URI so you can definitely run it on the network and connect to a beefy or machine or something yeah that you have right now you beat now your home lab now you're self hosting yeah that's that's you transcended the the singular machine and you went straight on home lab that's right you can probably post it you know you could probably have a fly server out there or digital ocean get it you know preach brother run ec2 instance and run it there and then no ec2 I'm just kidding I just hate in a little bit we're not paid to hate we just got a little bit of hate in our hearts okay that's how it works that's cool I I have to learn how to self host in the cloud better which I don't I don't have experience there you know my confidence would come from past success I don't have past success yeah past success I mean look at the old digital ocean box that you set up that we sure yes that's what that is that it

just

a little bit of you know you fw and that's it yeah man load up Ubuntu on a machine start a get a VPS load up Ubuntu man all some stuff on it expose a port and an IP and start connecting your stuff to that that's it huh it's so easy Nick could do it okay I might make it a a project what have you hosted Nick historically just websites mostly run an Apache or engine X or what yeah engine X

I

did oh and probably Apache because I I kind of stopped doing it I was hosting a WordPress site for a friend and it just login and it got really there's malware everywhere like all the code I do manually go change a hundred files and this was like I was not smart enough at the time

I

was like in college so yeah I didn't use any kind of version control so like all of the files got modified and I had to like manually go unmodified them that's funny did you know that I once set up my own little intrusion detection system yeah on a WordPress install using git and a shell script so like I didn't want it to change unless I change it right and so I had WordPress installed and I just initialized a git repository on the on all the PHP files and then like initial commit and then I assume that none of these files are gonna change and so I wrote a shell script that basically ran git status and if it had any modified files they would like email me like hey there's a file here that's changed that's awesome and that was pretty eye -opening because WordPress sites get files changed arbitrarily or seemingly arbitrarily more often than you would want them to you know oh there's a new file here or something of course you have to ignore certain directories like caches and stuff but yeah it was like a little intrusion detection like the dumbest one you could possibly do because I didn't have I didn't know how to run IDS's and stuff so that's clever it worked yeah the problem with that and with every intrusion detection system is false positives where it's like it detects something and you're like oh that makes sense and then you try to and then it's like my only tool is gitignore whereas if you have smarter tools you can obviously fingerprint much better and say like this part of a file makes sense to change or whatever whatever it was dumb like literally dumb solution but good enough for what I needed at the

time what's

up friends I'm here with a and I'm pretty excited to have him here because that means system initiative is out there is GA and I heard that you launched something yeah I'm stoked we did yeah we launched something on the 25th of September and yeah you can use system initiative now by going to a website and signing up and three clicks and you're in and then you can automate infrastructure it's sick it's the coolest thing in the universe I'm so proud of it well let's level some folks up let's level up the terraform folks the Pulumi folks the AWS CDK folks as of system initiative being GA these folks are kind of doing things the old way right yeah I mean that's what I hope is true okay look I here's here's what it is basically we figured out that part of the reason that it's so hard for us to achieve the outcomes we're looking to achieve with the kind of DevOps and operational work that we do is because the tools we're using sort of help bring about those tough outcomes it's a lot harder to like write static code have your friends review it in system initiative what you do is you use this like living architecture diagram to put together all the different relationships between the things that you use and then you can program that architecture diagram to do all the stuff you needed to do so like it automatically understands how to do things like you know create resources and delete them or update their tags or do those things but then you can also extend it with your own custom policy and the whole thing happens in real time in multiplayer let's say you're gonna like build some infrastructure you got to go you know use an AWS account you're gonna launch a new service so you got to go set up all the different pieces the VPCs and the EKS clusters and you know ECS and database services and you got to set up I am rules there's all this stuff you got to do with system initiative what'll happen is you'll sign up your kid at this workspace and then you'll have this list of all the different architecture assets that AWS provides and what you'll do is throw those things into this big diagram in the center of the screen which is basically this living architecture diagram and then you'll connect them together just like you would if you were drawing an architecture and what it's doing when you do that is actually writing the code to describe how these things work and it's running it as a simulation so it's telling you in real time this would work or this wouldn't so you don't have to wait there's no like long feedback loops we actually vet all of that infrastructure and all that architecture in advance then you can say hey this looks good it's what I want to see in the real world and you can apply that change set and it's keeping track of all the different things you have to do to actually go make that infrastructure real and then it goes and does it and then after it does it keeps track of those things too so you can see both sides you can see the real thing in the world that is what you created and it's and it's attached to the model of what you thought you wanted and then you can use that to manage it over time and then when you have customizations or tweaks or things you need to build for yourself you can go write that directly into the system in real time in these same kind of change sets that you use to do the infrastructure and so that's what it's System Initiative it's it's the most powerful intuitive collaborative way to do this work that's ever existed. Okay System Initiative is out there it is GA and it's the future go to systeminit .com get started in three clicks they do have a free tier that means free no credit card required that you can play with again systeminit .com that's s y s t e m i n i t dot com well our friends over at Speak Easy have the complete platform for API developer experience they can generate SDKs Terraform providers API testing docs and more and they just released a new version of their Python SDK generation it's optimized for anyone building an AI API every Python SDK comes with pydantic models for request and response objects and HTTP X client for async and synchronous method calls and support for server sent events as well speak easy is everything you need to give your Python users an amazing experience integrating with your API learn more at speak easy dot com slash Python again speak easy dot com slash Python. But speaking of WordPress. Okay Adam here in post production just want to jump in here real quick before we open up this WordPress topic because there has been a lot of details uncovered since we recorded this show not that we didn't talk about a lot of good stuff but some of what we talked about went stale some we talked about speculated and some of the stuff we talked about didn't get talked about at all so there was more to uncover there's lots of things happening around this drama this topic this feud this war and I told you know that we didn't cover everything so there you go

should

we segue did you mention WordPress Nick mentioned we're allowed to mention WordPress or is that like some kind of I think we have to shoot are we violating trademark if we do that I think we might get a cease and desist honestly let's just call it WP okay WP all right so I was driving this engine let's just call it WP engine and I won't tell you what open source software I was running okay so for those who don't know there's a lot going on between some large players in the WordPress community and probably the largest probably two players yeah one being Matt Mullenweg creator of WordPress and owner of automatic which is a company that capitalizes WordPress through hosting and WP engine which is another company that capitalizes WordPress through hosting both of which have contributed to the open source WordPress project lovingly hosted at wordpress .org but from what I can tell not to an extent that Matt Mullenweg is happy with on WP engines behalf so Matt started this brouhaha by calling out WP engine at WordCamp US 2024 guys hop in here and correct anything I'm saying and that's wrong I'm not hopping in because it's all correct so far okay so I'm really just trying to summarize what I know we are not WordPress community members we are very much just watching we know Matt we've had him on the show we don't know him very well yeah and I don't know anybody at WP engine so very much just reporting the news that we've read so Matt called out them for two reasons one of which is that they agreed to contribute more or they they agreed to contribute I guess at a pace that was somewhat equivalent to automatic and then they didn't this is Matt Mullenweg's report not mine and then the second reason is that they change core functionality of WordPress when they host it and they change it for reasons that he does not like specifically he pointed out that they will disable revision control which is according to Matt Mullenweg a core aspect of what WordPress offers since it is a content editing system and it has built -in revision control for many years WP engine disables that feature Matt Mullenweg says in order to save money on hosting they don't have to host all those different versions of every post or page so those are the things that he said and he said it live on and he said it from the WordCamp stage so it's kind of like a public call -out I mean it lawyers got together and sent a cease -and -desist to automatic for WP engine they responded I think the next day or two days later with a pretty lengthy

I

guess cease -and -desist like layered up you know straight up it was literally a cease -and -desist saying automatically must stop doing what slandering them the WP engine trademark or something so I was actually paying attention to this closely because hey if you didn't know we now use Zulip as our community chat crew we're trying it out it's not officially the one however shout out to Nabel for posting this new topic in general called WordPress drama and so I've literally been using our own source as a source Don McKinnon's in there I'm in there Nabel's back in there Nabel Eric's in there there's some linkups and so on September 23rd today's the 25th we're recording this on a Wednesday in the morning and so on Monday Brighton well bright and late 5 52 p .m. WP engine on X slash Twitter posts today WP engine sent what is called a cease -and -desist letter blah blah blah all that good stuff and then the chef's kiss to this was that it was a PDF from their council and the PDF lives in slash WP dash content slash uploads which was just like yeah right cool and then I believe the response back from automatic was September 25th or maybe the 24th automatic sense WP engine its own cease -and -desist like hey I'm gonna cease and desist if you cease and desist over WordPress trademark infringement and I think I think Matt mentioned this in his talk because I skimmed a lot of that talk where they use the term WP and I gotta agree I think I know because I'm I've been in the community for a while to know that it's not WordPress official but being called WP engine it is pretty closely aligned to the trademark so much so that you feel like it's as official as it can be without explicitly saying between the parties this is official you would almost assume as a passerby user of WordPress and of such there's many like it powers a lot of the web it's not these people are not smart they just don't generally take the time to dig into some of the details that may not matter them and I think this may be one of those details you're like yeah cool it's one of the most trusted hosting companies out there for WordPress so it's probably pretty good so long story short automatic a second on their cease -and -desist while the WP engine is first gotcha and the WP engine cease and desist letter has some pretty shady stuff in it that it seems that Matt Mullenweg has done specifically which seems kind of a store tative is that the word extortion or is it I don't know it does seem like that right it's because it's kind of like you know you got a nice business there be terrible if you lost it you know that kind of thing we're terrible something happened to it yeah in fact they claim now this is all claims now this has been adjudicated in a court of law we should say allegedly yes is that is the term that mainstream media uses maybe we should use that term here allegedly so we mentioned that he originally called them out at WordCamp US during his keynote well allegedly WP engines lawyers allege that in the days leading up to mr. Mullenweg September 20th keynote address at the WordCamp US convention automatic suddenly began demanding that WP engine pay automatic large sums of money and if it didn't automatic would wage a war against WP engine this demand was accompanied by allegations about WP engines business that were not only baseless but also bore no relation to the payment demand so they go on of course they're gonna lay out those kind of things my assumption here is this is like hey you are infringing on our trademark you're also doing other things I don't like if you give us a bunch of money then we will basically license you or I don't know what the exact agreement would be but so much so that he's sending text messages to WP engines CEO whose name I don't know leading up to the keynote and saying like hey I don't have to do this you know let's make a deal

mm -hmm

even says in this text message that they include in the document if I'm going to make the case to the WP community about why we're banning WP e WP engine I need to do it my talk tomorrow your lane is just trying to remove that and he says some other things as well which you can read to will link up to the PDF but

yeah this

is crazy this this is like so I'm not a lawyer I'll start there and we've said the word allegedly a couple times enough so that what I'm about to say is allegedly true or not true all right what this cease and desist from WP engine does not share it only shares the one side insofar as I know yeah it's their side all the screenshots I saw were from Matt Mullenweg to write the existing CEO of WP engine which part of which you didn't mention yet but part of the thing I think that and I don't think this is the the place you state these concerns on Matt's side but part of the issue he takes is that it's a private equity firm that acquired a previously more purposeful company entity called WP engine like WP engines been around for 15 years or more I don't even know it's like it's an institution at this point to the WordPress community it's exchanged hands or change hands has been acquired by a private equity firm that has assets managed which to my to my taste like it doesn't matter how much assets under management you have but it's big it's billions his issue that he takes in his talk is that I couldn't find the video in the title of it was like private equity is eating the world of X or something like that is like something bad to the WordPress community and so part of the issue is that and so what we don't have and to zoom back out again is like we only see in their cease and desist to automatic slash Matt and team or whoever this is to their counsel is the text from Matt to them that are pretty damning if you ask me like they're damaging they're not but we don't have context we don't know what the the other part of the conversation is but the issue I think that may have started this was that here's this I want to say for good company called WP engine that was acquired by private equity and has less for good they have this thing this terminology audience correct me on this Matt Nick if you know almost called you Matt is there's this thing where they they commit to giving back almost like a tithe back to the WordPress community so automatic does this they're a for -profit company Matt Mullenwick is also I believe the chairman of the board for the WordPress foundation they allege he has you know more access to the community should he has more power than you should and so his words weigh quite heavily but there's this idea of giving back to the open -source ness of WordPress of which automatic invest heavily of which WP engine historically at least recently historically does not yeah Matt gives numbers on that he says that automatic which is a similar size company in terms of revenue to WP engine contributes back three thousand nine hundred and fifteen hours a week to WordPress the open -source project WP engine under this new ownership contributes back 40 hours a week yeah like probably one person and so that's where I go back into Zulip because I I scanned this document the moment that Dom MacKinnon shared this things are getting spicy he links up this X post with the cease -and -desist to automatic CEO and I said quote scanned if this is even close to accurate and those screenshots are true words that Matt share with WPE and that's pretty damaging not sure what this percentage is behind the scenes being referenced but that wasn't discussed by Matt in the keynote and so if you watch the keynote Matt talks from one side to there's like context missing on both sides here's the here's the clincher for me on this and I don't know how what your mileage is on this I say quote if open source is free in all the ways that free is free then WPE is also free WP engine is also free not to contribute or contribute very little it's not cool but they are free to act as such that's why open source is so powerful you are free in every way to or not to participate it's not cool to only give 40 hours but they can do it because it's called open source that's how it works so zooming out again like private equity siphoning off dollars from the community Matt's argument I think it's a sound argument or even a prerogative to have or an opinion to have I don't think the stage in which he shared it and the way in which it was shared was necessarily right again we are missing some context so maybe that context is pertinent to course correcting that feeling I have but I just don't feel like you do that like that's not that's like a that's like Will Smith all over again and Chris Rock man you don't go up on a stage and slap somebody okay it's just not how you do things you think Matt Mullenweg said you know get the name WordPress out your mouth get the name WordPress out your mouth Nick your thoughts on the matter you've been silent as we review and and correct each other than the details lots of details here we may not have it like a mask or like Adam said

there's

probably missing context on both sides for us but yeah still I actually heard about this on Sunday I don't I don't know when word camp actually was but I heard about it on Sunday from a friend who works at WP Engine and was telling me how did you see this this drama where they were they were calling us out on stage and I was like oh that's interesting I'm like I haven't heard of it because I'm not really in the WordPress scene but from what I do know from the periphery about like WordPress and automatic and Matt Mullenweg like he seems like a really nice guy so it seems out of character yeah to be like disparaging like singling you out specifically and like I remember if he said that they like escorted their booth away or something like made them get off really yeah they were a sponsor of word camp it seems $75 ,000 they spent to be a sponsor so a large sponsor of word camp and so I do think that Matt probably has some sort of a boiling point here

yeah

as I said in the beginning Adam and I have interviewed Matt a couple of times he is a very nice guy he's soft -spoken he's very thoughtful he's been very successful and brought a lot of success to a lot of people

mm

-hmm I don't know him personally I don't know if he you know it's a lot of very soft -spoken nice people also have tempers and can just go off maybe that's him I don't know but this does seem like an out -of -character thing or is this it was a surprise to me when I heard about it and like they definitely have like a good reputation too I can think of I'm not a WordPress user I don't want to ever use WordPress to be honest dang it's not for me you're a PHP guy though aren't you Nick I'm starting to be more but I would go yeah by force you have a Lambo yet not yet okay work on that but they like you know they they've come in in like I think automatic or maybe somewhere around that vicinity owns tumblr now right and day one the the journaling app

and

like you know yes it seems like oh that's a good trustworthy company to be stewarding these these apps that otherwise might just die off and a lot of people and pocket casts they bought pocket cast is a and they open sourced it after they bought it yeah I just switched to pocket yes oh that's interesting I've always appreciated Matt Mullen was investments he like invests in things that I think are cool and then he a lot of times will open source them after investing awesome I didn't know the podcast was open though so when you go to their website it's not very clear that it is which kind of is a bummer but I I agree with you Jared I think it's super cool that when he does like day one I was a fan of day one it was probably one of the best Mac apps to journal personally it's such a cool application in podcast of old and a whole different show different idea I think it was called the industry radio show back with like Drew Wilson and Jared Aranda a different Jared Jared sorry we podcast with the creator of that back today was like an indie startup that got acquired by automatic and then it was open source I believe to simple note was part of that you know he's got a track record of doing the right thing I think which I do think it's surprising his seemingly harsh way to put this cat out of the bag or push it out of the bag or let it out of the bag there's some context I'm assuming that's missing because this doesn't seem characteristic of his past behavior yeah and it seems like I mean we all should be rooting for Matt and the and like the WordPress side right the open source side because that's what what so many people that we know try and do is like find some way to fund open source in a meaningful way and this is the same thing WordPress is a massively successful project but at the end of the day it is an open source project that needs funding it needs people to work on it it needs all that maintenance because as I personally found out it's quite easy to get in there and hack now that wasn't WordPress fault probably it was probably just poor security on my my Linode instance surely surely I'll believe myself for that what was this feature that they disabled Jared I was reading something while you were sharing that content was revision control revision control so every time you make an edit it saves the version which would be database costs on WP engine side yeah I mean at their scale it's probably significant savings right this does sound like a private equity move would be like to go in and cut costs and like that would be a one way to cut cost now having said that this is not like changing the way WordPress works this is a WP config option that is default on that you can that WP engine the company defaults now to off and so I I think you can go back in I would hope that you go back in through their interface yeah surely you can configure your WordPress since their hostings and turn it back on again but this is just like totally a private equity thing to do is like let's cut costs here's one one way to do it and I can see where that's a legit move by them as a business but it also offends Matt Mullenweg as the creator of WordPress is a config setting and it is it makes total sense to me especially if it's I don't know because I don't use it but if it is something that you could easily just go flip on

then

it seems totally acceptable if you're actually someone who cares it's not gone it's there it's right there but yeah I don't which is just yeah attack and I don't know that that's the right litigation now yeah litigation

I

mean the trademark thing is murky like Adam said mm -hmm but then like here's a challenge to you you know like you're gonna start up a WordPress hosting company what can you call it flywheel well they don't exist anymore exactly I mean they get bought by WP engine I don't know who fly well I think they did yeah they did we know flywheel well because fly wheels and company did you know yeah I did know that yeah and that's that's part of the beauty of a startup too for sure is that you don't have to be named adjacent or similarly to be successful fly with it a great job they were very innovative early on and they ran WordPress websites very fast and they were competitive with WP engine they were a great company Nick you said that we should be on the side of open source mm -hmm right we should be done on the side of WordPress I mostly agree with that we should I'm not against open source I want to be clear with that very foreboding wasn't it I'm for the freedom I'm for the freedom again I don't think it's cool the WP engine doesn't give back there's some context maybe we're missing there maybe maybe it's a private equity thing maybe it's a we haven't done maybe they got a good reason maybe they have a reason period that this is their prerogative but that is the freedom and free of open source in my opinion it is not cool does that elicit this kind of response like for the founder the creator of WordPress to go on stage and say you guys are jerks like is that is this that I've agrees of an offense I think it's not cool I don't think it's the place for the stage of the WordPress or the the WordCamp keynote it could be a blog post like hey private equity siphoning off money WordPress open source help me get behind this not so much ban them but like this is not cool can we can we convince them to change their behavior versus like get out of here you know you're not welcome here anymore as a sponsor you're being banned you know if we want to have a free world in terms of open source we have to have a free world in terms of the participation as well I don't see the difference between a blog post and WordCamp keynote I think that like that's just to the level it's a big difference why

you

think a blog post isn't gonna also create an entire news cycle around this I mean of course it would okay so I'll give you that I think that it's I think so my lens on that is that somebody else said we would rather hear about community updates and changes the WordPress and roadmap and direction versus this drama so that's my reasoning for it I don't disagree that they would both have similar amplification I think it's like poor taste it's kind of poor taste it's not the place again Will Smith going up on stage laughing Chris Rock that is not the place that's like Chris Rock when you shouldn't slide many ways but you certainly shouldn't do it the Oscars I didn't read Will Smith's blog post on the situation so carried more weight being on stage I don't think there is one I don't think she let him write one no all right that's fair I think there's probably some fair to some taste to that I think it speaks to the level of his anger I think the very the part that I don't have a problem with the WordCamp keynote he created WordPress he's there to give an update he can say what he wants I think he's earned that right for me it's like the give me a bunch of money and I won't do this thing like that is where it's super dicey like no that's not integrity at all like why why all of a sudden if you pay me a bunch of money does it not matter anymore I mean isn't he already uber rich why would he is that whole deal and like I'm about to do this like to me like that's where he loses me more so than the venue but I do understand your argument there about not the time or the place I do go back to this though like whose side do we have to be on first of all you know what does it matter what we think but secondly I agree like wordpress .org I think we should all be on the side of WordPress the open source community and when we look about these two corporate entities both of which are making billions of dollars in revenue revenue so at least no small dog here

didn't

he say I think he said 500 million ARR they do have about a half a billion in revenue okay so half a billion on top of WordPress two years later it's a billion so I mean you're you're mostly accurate yeah sure so

what's

a billion between friends WP engine is contributing back one developer one full -time developer meanwhile automatic is employing 97 875 developers full -time on this open -source project that's an astounding amount of investment almost 100 people working full -time on an open -source project I think they've earned their bona fides for that I mean I think they these these two things are not comparable it's like comparing a million dollars to a billion dollars and the difference is like roughly a billion okay let's do some other math here so if it's a hundred people let's just round to a hundred based on the hours you're doing that math based on the hours or is there a little number of developers right it's like 3700 hours per week 39 39 15 okay let's just say 4 ,000 that's running up let's run up to 100 developers that's pretty accurate right yeah let's do the comparative math here if it's one developer let's just give them a potentially a low average of 100 K per year for developer it's probably somewhat ish maybe an average brings it down to 100 K maybe it's 150 let's just use round numbers of 100 K if you're employing a hundred developers at a hundred thousand dollars a year this is pretty basic math that's ten million dollars a year in terms of his salary expense right if you do that for one developer for the entire year it's well and that's pretty easy math like one times one is one right right one times 100 ,000 is tell Nick 100 ,000 Nick that's the right answer okay I said yeah he nodded his head so do me this math then Nick since you're sharp here on the on the pencil fire break ready get Siri out that Apple intelligent Siri 10 million minus 100 ,000 the difference is nine point nine million nine million nine hundred thousand that's the difference two orders of magnitude it's like it is it's a hundred times more if that's accurate if that truly breaks up into 100 people well I mean we're doing yes not a hundred we round it and stuff we did if we're just basically fine I will take it to 97

no

this is napkin math it's fine okay nine point seven million versus all with you yeah

I'm

joking around it's for a podcast it's a difference it's a big difference it's a huge difference it is a huge difference for sure but I don't know like I keep coming back to like how many companies are massively profiting on the backs of open source developers and contribute nothing back well that there is the Rick leave it in fine myself Rick Nick Rick that's the rub Rick that's the rub Rick was doing two hours there I got I got tongue tied Rick Rubin that's the rub is that this is a call -out moment yeah without enough context they are both equally generating similar ARR that stands for annual recurring revenue for those I'm just kidding with you I know you know that Nick you're smart

oh

you got I got very condescending there I know you know this I know you know this and that's where the argument I believe is but we're we're camping in this world of lack of context and potentially the wrong place to slap a person okay show title the wrong place to slap a person all right well that's how it stands right now then you have our comments on the matter I think we're starting to circle the wagon so let's not camp out here any longer reuse Adams pun this will be figured out in the court of law it seems unless there's a settlement because now they're both suing each other and it's gonna get nastier from here so

maybe

we'll talk about it more at least and threaten there's some threats yeah I did DM Matt prior to cease and desist letters being shared on X we have exchanged DMS in the past I don't know why he's being so silent just kidding I totally know why and I did email Matt asking for this is again both in both occasions prior to the cease and desist and I will email longer because I know why there's no response because when you have legal issues or concerns or exchanged legal details you know it gets it gets spicy look I can see that my email has been opened because that's how I got it it's okay there you go he can leave it to the experts on WordPress like me to talk about this that's right

that's

right that's right so did we give it with those ATO tickets Jared did we did we I don't think we did we mentioned right here how many you got can you fan them out can you like like money can you make them rain these ATO tickets I can there are ten of them we have ten free passes to the in -person all things open 2024 in Raleigh North Carolina at the end of October these are ours to give mm -hmm whomever we please yes and so we're going to give them away here soon to members of our community in our new community chat which lives in Zulip mm -hmm don't slag it to us no slack has been slacking and we are now in Zulip chatting in a much more organized fashion and we're enjoying it quite a bit keyboard -driven open -source indie built by hackers bootstrapped right yes not so much anti VC but eight you know VC are no VC VC resistant straightforward business model mm -hmm I'm not even against VC really by the way me there I'm against VC with no with we'll figure out the business model later like that's what I'm against anytime it's like you know we'll make it up in volume that's where it ends up being advertising is the only answer and now you are not incentivized with your end users mm -hmm I don't mind VC to bootstrap a company that otherwise wouldn't exist otherwise that's too many otherwise is but have a business model I think that developer tools and developer communities have a much more straightforward line than something like a browser a consumer product because we've seen it hosting as a straight line as WordPress has proven out and freemium as a straight line as many dev tools have figured out you build these extra features not around a single individual user but around a team which means they're backed by a company hopefully a that's making money for itself and has money to spend and so I think a lot of these venture backed dev tools companies I don't break asses venture back or not they are yes it is yeah yeah a lot of our advertisers are venture backed and that's why they have some money to spend on getting their name out there right and so that's a straightforward thing is I don't know if Ray cast is a premium based on like a pro version right but a lot of these are going teams like when you have a team there's our business model warp is doing that that is doing that etc etc and I think that's a pretty straightforward line like that doesn't bug me of course there's still a question of can you actually make enough money with that model to make money for your investors and thrive and all that but at least it's there and it's obvious and it's not like well we'll just figure it out later that's my biggest concern with venture back what about those ATO tickets ten free tickets well I was trying to clarify I like I like I'm not just a hater I have a retort can I retort what about these tickets well that was partially my retort I have a retort to your your stance all right go ahead no one did the tickets what bothers me in the marketplace is when an up -and -coming maybe even the company that's using venture capital in a way that has sustainability behind it cannot generate revenue or is completely wiped clean because a behemoth of the fangs potentially decides to make their thing free and I think just maybe in the case of our friends at Zulip you've got teams that is generally given away it's paid there's paid version of it it's there's a lot of it where they're able to give away so much for free because they're so big and you have a hard time competing that's another challenge too is like I'm not against but it but again in the in the world of commerce you kind of have to be flexible you know but I agree with you on there's healthy ways to take venture capital and there's unhealthy ways to take venture capital and there's things that unhealthy venture capital does to you as a leader of your product after you take the money things that get forced on you that's my simple retort okay all right there I have an idea for how we can give these tickets away okay I think you might like it do you mind if I share it only if I'm gonna like it I will give you the option to reserve the right to veto my idea okay okay cool we pre -discuss this so it's not far off from pre -discussion what if maybe around this WordPress drama maybe not to dive into the WordPress drama topic but hey hop in Zulip we're gonna give you a URL to go to hop in Zulip and give us the best pun against this WordPress drama or just something funny to say back about what's happening here I don't know is that an idea what do you think about that idea like I said we're gonna camp out here for a bit maybe there's some other that's probably that we've already used the best one okay it's like the number one option on jeopardy here's my concern with providing us a pun in our Zulip chat is that that's just a lot of friction he's vetoing it fine I just want to get those ten tickets out there for people you know make it easy you know introduce yourself how about that that's a good way introduce yourself in Zulip and say uh I take a free pass to ATO something like that yeah it'll be yours first ten people to do that BAM there is an introduce yourself topic inside of the channel called general which Nick hasn't done yet I haven't gosh Nick I like this though like this press your luck drop a word into Zulip and see if and then then camp out in there you can't just keep her using the same funds over and over again Nick yeah you don't know me sir you know you don't know Nick not well if you don't know you will repeat himself I'm very used to this oh um yeah there you go let's do it that way if you put a pun in there bonus you're gonna get so many reaction emoji Nick will be all over it he might even camp out in there with you in fact I'll just put it out there right now if you have a good pun Nick will put on your post every single emoji in the list trust me he has time it's enough flexes scripting skills on this one actually there is a way in the Zulip API which I've been coding against this week to add reactions to a post so actually Nick you could code that up if you wanted to I could and it's not something that I that it's passed me for sure I mentioned that I actually worked at flywheel for three months and you did on my first day there did I learn about WordPress no I set the record by day one adding three thousand seven hundred and fifty four new emojis to their slack

gosh

what a contribution did they give you a raise fire the next day I didn't I I had metrics you know I was I couldn't impact day one

that

is day one it's called noise not signal that's that's metrics though that's good good job everybody knows Nick is here he's bringing song and emojis watch out is that it for the show is this is this the Friends episode is this over do we start recording not your track we don't need yours we'll drop you out in post that's fine all right see you in Zulip bye friends bye friends what an epic friends episode Nick is so awesome I love Nick he's so much fun to talk to he is a good friend he's a lot more fun in person but he's just as fun in a podcast as you can tell but if you like Nick you'll love Nick even more if you're a plus plus subscriber because we did an epic bonus content for our plus plus subscribers Jared was there for a little bit and then had to bail and then Nick and I were just unleashed to just talk and we did I think it's about 40 minutes I don't know it's a long one and I think you'll enjoy it so we do have some ATO tickets to give away we also have a discount code and this is usable by anyone so here it is go to 2024 dot all things open org that is the website for all things open the conference there is a registration link click that and when you go there use the coupon code media change log 20 now to be clear it's capital M media capital C change log 20 so media change log 20 and then camel case media and change log and then add 20 afterwards no spaces details are in the show notes so check that out too if this is confusing there you go hope to see you there and we see you there high fives hugs handshakes hot mics whatever let's do it okay so if you're not a plus plus subscriber and you want to listen to this epic afterwards from me and Nick then you're gonna want to go to change log comm slash plus plus it's better you know what it's better because Nick and I are going at length deep on some books on some coffee on some fun stuff I had a lot of fun I think I really enjoy it again change log comm slash plus plus ten bucks a month hundred bucks a year you get to drop the ads you get to come a little closer to that cool change log metal and get bonus content like today and get a free sticker pack sent to you to your dress and shout outs on change all news here and there so cool and we had some awesome sponsors today assembly AI socket super bass and speakeasy and of course to our partners in crime fly dot IO share the love they support us go support them if you want to any big thank you to the beat freak in residence break master cylinder for those awesome beats hey that's it this friends is over so bye friends