Ten years of freeCodeCamp

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Welcome to changeloggin' and friends A weekly talk show all about that bass Special thanks to our partners at Fly .io The public cloud, built for devs who ship Deploy your app in five minutes or less at Fly .io Okay, let's talk What's up nerds, I'm here with Kurt Mackey, co -founder and CEO of Fly You know we love Fly So Kurt, I want to talk to you about the magic of the cloud You have thoughts on this, right?

Right I think it's valuable to understand the magic behind the cloud Because you can build better features for users basically If you understand that You can do a lot of stuff Particularly now that people are doing LLM stuff But you can do a lot of stuff if you get that and can be creative with it

So when you say clouds aren't magic because You're building a public cloud for developers And you go on to explain exactly how it works What does that mean to you?

In some ways it means these all came from somewhere Like there was a simpler time before clouds Where we'd get a server at Rack Shack and we'd SSH it Or telnet into it even And put files somewhere and run the web servers ourselves To serve them up to users Clouds are not magic on top of that They're just more complicated ways of doing those same things In a way that meets the needs of a lot of people instead of just one One of the things I think that people miss out on And a lot of this is actually because AWS and GCP Have created such big black box abstractions Lambda is really black boxy You can't pick apart Lambda and see how it works from the outside You have to sort of just use what's there But the reality is Lambda is not all that complicated It's just a modern way to launch little VMs And serve some requests from them And let them pause and resume And free up physical compute time The interesting thing about understanding how clouds work Is it lets you build features for your users you never would expect it And our canonical version of this for us Is that when we looked at how we wanted to isolate user code We decided to just expose this machines concept Which is a much lower level abstraction in Lambda That you could use to build Lambda on top of And what machines are is just these VMs That are designed to start really fast Are designed to stop and then restart really fast Are designed to suspend sort of like your laptop does when it closes And resume really fast when you tell them to And what we found is that giving people those primitives Actually there's like new apps being built that couldn't be built before Specifically because we went so low level And made such a minimal abstraction On top of generally like Linux kernel features A lot of our platform is actually just exposing A nice UX around Linux kernel features Which I think is kind of interesting But like you still need to understand what they're doing To get the most use out of them

Very cool okay so Experience the magic of Fly And get told the secrets of Fly Because that's what they want you to do They want to share all the secrets behind the magic of the Fly cloud The cloud for productive developers The cloud for developers who ship Learn more and get started for free at fly .io Again fly .io 10 years Quincy 10 years free code camp We got together on your 5th birthday slash anniversary I'm not sure which one you refer to Is it a birthday Adam or is it an anniversary When a thing turns an age Seems like a birthday Birthday it's age right It's a celebration either way Yeah But now it's 10 years Quincy So that was 5 years ago that we interviewed you About 5 years of free code camp Here you are on your 10th year right

Yeah

we just We're hitting 10 years like this month I think it's like toward the end of the month I'll have a big announcement article that'll come out So this may come out before or after that But yeah it's late October 2014 is when I sat down in my closet And I bashed out the first commits And put them on the internet And then started tweeting about them And posting stuff on hacker news and stuff Yeah How much does free code camp today look like What you thought it was gonna look like In October 2014 when you first started hacking on it Does it look like what you expected Well you have to consider that free code camp is the product of Thousands of contributors at this point And I'm just like a single dev And I had like this much more narrow Kind of like I guess like General image of what I was hoping to achieve And what that was was free developer education Extremely generically We wanted to make sure that everybody Had an option that was completely free Where they could go and they could learn The skills that they needed to go out and get jobs And provide for themselves provide for their families And have like an interesting actualized career As opposed to like working at Taco Bell Which I did when I was you know A teenager and I just remember How bad it was To work at Taco Bell It wasn't a great job it barely paid anything Yeah it's a starter job Yeah I mean it's a starter job But a lot of people find themselves after college In quote unquote starter jobs working at Starbucks And places like that right And so we wanted to make sure that like regardless of what Where people were in life in terms of Age where people were socioeconomically In terms of their ability To like have time where they can like put the kids To sleep and actually like study and stuff like We wanted to make sure that busy adults Had a learning resource that would get them from Wherever they were to wherever they needed to be To be able to work as devs So that was the vision So vision realized right? I mean You could say yes So here's how Here's how I view it okay so There are certain people who are so motivated And so just galvanized To make their dreams a reality That they will just do whatever right Like you can drop them parachute them into the jungle With nothing but a machete and they'll figure out How to like invent Nuclear fusion or fission Maybe and stuff like that right Like the Gilligan's Owl The professor right You have those people that are Incredibly resourceful and incredibly driven And it's almost kind of like a spectrum right And then like a little ways over There's probably like the three of us And then a little bit further over Would be like You know 18, 19 year old me Working at Taco Bell Not really sure what to do with life And not even sure if college was worth it And all those things right and then You know perhaps even further along You would have the person who's completely Encumbered with you know Maybe aging adult parents And they've got this day job And they have no energy and they're stressed all the time Maybe they have more than one job And maybe they have disabilities they have like All these additional things that You know keep them from achieving And so it's not just motivational It's also like circumstantial But essentially They're from the beginning of time There have been like the good will huntings That can just go to the library and like get a college education For the price of like three dollars in late fees Or whatever and that's great like Free Code Camp Has been a great resource to those people Early on I think even from the early Days we were a great resource for those people What we're trying to do is gradually Allow more and more people to Get involved and To chart a course for their Learning and so that is one of the Big things we've been doing and a big part of that Is just offering like an inclusive Welcoming community that Will help you when you need help and that Will give you feedback on Your code that you submit, help you get Unstuck when you can't figure Out like some you know environment Issue when you're trying to set up a local Development environment or help point You toward a useful library for accomplishing XYZ you know so I would Say like the story of Free Code Camp has Just been making it a little bit More accessible each day Through incremental pull requests Of which I just checked the GitHub repo And we've had Let's see we've had more Than 56 ,000 GitHub issues in pull requests Wow and the total number Of commits is 36 ,472 commits 36 ,472 Commits and that like a lot of the Commits I made really early on were squashed Because I was like very robust with my commits And like Murgesh came in and he's like Oh man so I went from like the number one contributor To like the number 100 contributor because So many of my commits were squashed but And overwritten and stuff like that over The years but yeah like it's Just been a slow incremental process Of building up that core curriculum to make It more accessible and more comprehensive And then just the work of keeping It contemporary and making sure we're Teaching you know React and Next .js We're teaching Postgres and And like contemporary tools that people use I'm reminded of that quote that Says people overestimate what they Can do in 10 days and they underestimate what They can do in 10 years and I think that Free Code Camp at 10 years Might be a great example of that Quote being true because The accomplishment at this point seems Massive and epic And I'm sure Maybe not wilder than your imaginations but You know if you look back to Quincy in 2014 and you told Him where it is today He would probably be a pretty happy camper wouldn't he? Oh yeah yeah I would be like through Like over the moon I would be like through the roof I would just be like Super duper hyped that I could be a part Of something like this and I wake up every day And I thank God that I Am able to be a part Of this and do something that is Helping people and Yeah so I hope that Doesn't come across as overly like Like immodest but like I do feel Like I have been A small part of something monumental so Far and I also feel that we're Just getting started. It's kind of funny whenever You look back at something whenever you just Sort of like steadily chiseled away At this block You're not a sculptor you Have an idea you've got to obviously chisel You've got time Potentially patience And you've got Some sort of direction. They always say Instead of creating goals create systems And I kind of think you created a system You're a systematizer so you've Systematized the things that Generally the things that make other people Quit or don't allow Other people to join You said that you're one part Of many to make this possible I'm paraphrasing because I didn't say your exact words but How big is the team? How has the team grown Over the years? What size is the team Today compared to five years ago even? Yeah that's an excellent question so The actual staff is pretty small When you compare it to like all the open source Contributors but we do have kind of like A core team if you will of People who we've brought on that were Open source contributors that we were able to Budget bringing them on to work full time so Generally the way this works is I'll Hop on a call with them they'll be like a prolific Long -term contributor and I'll Learn more about them and if they seem like they're Like a good fit and like if they seem like The person who's would Responsibly be able to manage themselves Because I don't manage people We don't have any sort of management hierarchy Like I definitely admire What like militaries and like Giant corporations can do in terms of Creating hierarchies that get things done and stuff Like that but that's not For us like we're a remote Distributed team and so I get on a call basically And I talk to people and I'm like Hey if you could Continue to contribute like right now you're contributing Like 5 hours a week 6 hours a week right like You're getting so much done with this limited amount of time What if you could contribute like 40 hours a week And if they're like oh well then I'd focus on this and I'd do this and You know this area really needs Improvement or I'd like to go deeper into This and potentially incorporate that into The curriculum then I'm like awesome well Let's bring you on and You can do that and so Over time we've I think we have like 35 people on the team In 21 different countries So we're an extremely international Like we've never had an office I've never even gotten like a We work type thing like I've always just worked out of My my home First my closet and now We move from San Francisco to Texas and I have like a A proper like house That has a yard that I mow every week and things like that Right so so I just work out of Like one of the rooms in the house so We fly these 35 people from around the world To Texas you're in Plano Texas which is like a good School district that's why we moved here it's like really good public School and we just hang out and we Go to different public libraries like I I call it the library tour and we go To like several different like the Plano library the Coppell Library the Lewisville Library and like we go into all these different libraries For about two or three hours and we just have these like sessions And then we go and hang out At the National Video Game Museum Which is this amazing video game museum if you're ever in Plano We go play like they have like a Perfectly restored like 1980 Style video arcade and stuff inside It among other things and So these are like If you look at the people on the team It very much mirrors the kind of people That are contributing to the open source effort And it's not just the open source effort on GitHub People who are writing books and articles That we're publishing through Free Code Camp Press FreeCodeCamp .org slash news People who are publishing video courses On the Free Code Camp YouTube channel Yeah like just chill human beings That feel like they can Contribute to the global You know knowledge base essentially Like the way that people Acquire skills so That's a very long winded answer but like Almost everybody on the team is a developer Who has also had some Classroom teaching experience usually And everybody's a jack of all trades I can give you a lot of Insight over the years in how the team Has changed in terms of priorities and configuration But it's basically been the same people that we brought on Maybe like four or five years ago We had the budget to start bringing More people on because we got our Charity tax exempt status And then we started getting donations from The community and those donations have gradually grown We've also gotten some ad revenue from YouTube and like you know Display ads if you go to the Free Code Camp publication You might see ads for upcoming conferences or books And things like that and that's you know that Has helped us kind of expand And sustain ourselves as a charity So the team has not grown a lot The team was basically Kind of stabilized at around 35 people That's a good sized team for a non -profit I think so I mean 21 countries that's astounding So there's so many different Things going on you know In and around Free Code Camp How do you Quincy Decide what to work on Like what's important today How do you make those kind of calls Yeah so I listen to the community and what people In the community seem to think is important And then I also talk to employers I talk to professors I talk to like just as many different people as I can To understand where things are going And I spend a great deal of time Immersed in listening to the Changelog Podcast And other podcasts About math programming technology Computer science I spend a lot of time studying history I spend a lot of time Talking to people in India China, Brazil Countries like where there are huge numbers Of developers that dwarf even like what's in the United States in a lot of cases And I'm trying to figure out What are they doing what is important to them Where you know you want to skate Where the puck is going as Wayne Gretzky says And then like we very much want to Be out ahead of things and that Doesn't necessarily mean like oh AI is a big thing We're going to implement like an AI chatbot That you can talk to when like You know I mean that might be useful but it's just A wrapper around a big foundation model right Like I don't know that the world needs another Wrapper around a foundation model but what we can Do is we can take AI and we can Use it to speed up our localization process Right before we hand translated And then we use machine translation to translate The free cocaine core curriculum and now what we're Doing is we're feeding you know as much into The context window as we can into GPT 4 .0 and we're saying hey Translate this to the best of your ability Into accessible Brazilian Portuguese right Sixth grade reading level and then we're having Native Portuguese speakers review And correct that and that Is much faster to correct Machine translation than it is to Translate yourself so It dramatically speeds up the rate at which we can Get localization done and We're not going to be one of those pages where you just go And there's like some Google you know plugin thing That like basically auto translates everything And there's like 70 languages immediately available In clicks now these are all translated by Native speakers there's always a native speaker In the loop because we value Clear communication we want to make sure the Curriculum is clear And they're like I think 10, 12 novels worth of Content in the core curriculum In terms of text I mean it's like Hundreds of thousands of words that need to be translated And we want to make sure those are translated correctly so we use We use LOMs for that So we're always Adopting new tools but we're not just Following the leader because we don't have to follow the leader Because we're a charity and we don't have investors And we don't have owners and We can just basically kind of follow the will Of the community That's pretty intense that last part Was really you know the hook Really In that you don't have this Grand corporation That drives the direction of free code camp That you can bend to the will Of the people you can go Literally in the world where it's necessary From a language perspective from a A need perspective and Such an admirable thing Honestly it's just impressive Very impressive that's all I wanted to say Jared that was it I was keen on the exact same thing I was thinking how liberating it must be To not have that Thing that so much of so many of us have Which is this need to Capitalize basically to To produce profit when you have I mean obviously You still have a need for donations An epic need for donations And you've been working like you've been working on that As an entrepreneur will be working on Their revenue I think That's my just watching you like and you've gotten That flywheel going To the point where You know sustainability seems to be there of course That also relies on future Donors so I'm not saying if You're interested in donating to free code camp I'm not saying they don't need your money anymore I'm just saying that you've gotten to a point where It seems like you're stabilized and you Don't have a hook To make more money For these people because they're just doing it out of The goodness of their hearts and their appreciation Probably because they went through free code camp And got a sweet job at the end of it And now they're making way more money and so why Wouldn't they just support that cause Yeah and like it's Great it is liberating that's an excellent word to use When you are basically beholden To the community the grassroots Support that is supporting you Right this is not some political campaign where we lose And all the money was kind of like

oh

Bye bye you know this is like an Endeavor that will continue hopefully For hundreds of years and that may sound Hyperbolic but there are plenty of charities That have been around for hundreds of years The YMCA which I just came back from Like if I look sweaty I just came back From walking to my local YMCA where I exercise Right that's been a charity For like 170 years or something Like that the Red Cross Doctors Without Borders And so many educational charities And NGOs and they can Last for hundreds of years because You can listen to Jeff Bezos himself Talk about Amazon and he says basically like You know corporations have like a shelf life Right unless you're like some hotel In Europe or a pub You know a pub in Europe or a hotel in Japan Or something where you can have like a thousand years Of history that is extremely rare In business because Investors need growth They necessarily are investing money Because they want the you know Future value of Total cash flows right The discounted value of that they need that to Continue to grow So that the market cap will grow Otherwise why would they invest with you when they can invest with Somebody else everybody's chasing growth right And you can only grow so much Once you're Amazon size You can only grow so much and Jeff Bezos has said In an interview that he thinks like Amazon is just Not gonna make it and like nobody ever makes it Because that's just how things work Rise and fall that's how companies work Right the market changes it's very difficult To keep up once you're established right Well it's just difficult to keep growing Yeah I mean at some point like When you're you know like how is Nvidia gonna keep growing what is the total addressable Market

of

GPUs Right like they're already a three Trillion dollar company like is Suddenly the world gonna need ten times a hundred Times maybe but at some point it won't Need any more GPUs there will be enough And the market will be sated right And then all the investors are gonna turn On them and just like ditch them And that's the rational thing to do If you're a rational actor In you know the economy is to Take your money out of the company that's declining and put it Into a company that's rising right And that's how like Venetric capital works they're trying to like ramp up your Valuations so they can you know Exit when there's a liquidity event whether that's an Acquisition or whether that's going public or something And each round has to be bigger otherwise You got a down round and you got a company that's in decline And people start leaving the ship So because growth is so Intrinsic to for profit Enterprises it's just It's not built for sustainability Charities are by definition just Built to sustain themselves right So you know if you want to go long If you want to exist multi -generational Starships getting to you know Kepler or wherever you need To have like a charity type Structure or you need to have like you know a Family business that's passed down generation to Generation where no single generation screws up Or sells it to private equity Or something like that right so I know this is about open source This podcast but I will talk about sustainability Because I genuinely believe that if You are listening to this and you want to create An organization that is going to sustain Itself long term you should probably do like a Family type business or you should probably do A charity where there's no Ownership and everybody's just invested In the mission and sustaining it like A charity can't like I can't sell Free Code Camp to Some giant education corporation right Like only a charity can Acquire a charity and there's no Incentive for me I don't own any stock in Free Code Camp I could just give it to Better owners but when would I trust somebody To run it better than I trust myself or somebody else On my team right I don't know Quincy You can go ask Sam Altman for the workarounds I think He's got some stuff figured out over there That stuff is technically Legal but like you know Like any charity will like look down on it Like what they're doing is kind of a shame and what edX did where they like sold To I think like Chegg or one of the big Kaplan I can't remember edX Was an open source platform that was Technically a charity that was founded by Harvard and MIT They both put in like both universities put in Like 60 million dollars to found it And they paid the CEO like millions Of dollars and stuff like that like that was Technically a charity so yes it is Certainly possible that you can like convert a Charity to a for profit entity But like if you're optimizing around Going long you would never do that like No I was not being serious I was No no no it's worth it's worth noting That there have been historic instances Of charities flipping well actually if this thing Goes through though as it seems like it's going to Do this open AI reshuffle I don't know how it's all shaken out it's very much Like smoke and mirrors It's kind of a bad precedent for other entrepreneurs To like well why didn't we just have a non profit And then somehow convert it When it's economically Smart to do that I don't want to go down that rabbit Hole necessarily but it could be a bad precedent Such a public and valuable Organization doing that Well our friends over at speakeasy Have the complete platform for API developer experience They can generate SDKs Terraform providers API testing docs and more And they just released a new version Of their Python SDK generation That's optimized for Anyone building an AI API every Python SDK Comes with pydantic models for requests And response objects And HTTPX client For async and synchronous Method calls and support for Server sent events as well Speakeasy is everything You need to give your Python users An amazing experience Integrating with your API Learn more at speakeasy .com Slash python Again speakeasy .com Slash python

Let's

talk about demand because you know we've had a market Correction you know Hashtag learn to code had its moment And it's kind of gone now In terms of it being like a Cultural thing where like everybody must Learn to code And there was a time where you could go through Free code camp and do the Very strenuous work How many hours that is 90 hour Courses I mean that was the original thing right I mean the core curriculum is thousands of hours long Nobody ever finishes it So it's a lot of effort but you could do it in 6 months maybe 9 months how long would it take you I mean probably like 18 months if you're studying like 20 hours a week Part time year and a half you could get through that And at the other side of that tunnel Maybe 3 or 4 years ago Was almost a guaranteed opportunity And a little bit harder today In today's market is that fair to say Quincy Absolutely and I've been Pretty like we don't really Care one way or the other like we're here We're thinking over longer time Horizons and I think it'll Correct over time like the number Of developer openings is Back to where it was around like 2000 2020 like pre -pandemic During the pandemic and like everything like There was tons of money and interest rates Were really low and there was like stimulus And all this stuff and interest Spiked Free co -camp there were days where we were getting More than 1 million like 2 million visits a day Or something like that right like we had like a single Article that was just Blowing up and getting like 10 plus million views or something like that It was just like a collection of like Free online university courses But that had its moment And we were going viral so to speak As the pandemic was going viral And trapping everybody in their homes and stuff And so yeah absolutely That was like a huge year for us And now we're kind of like having this regression To a mean but The difference now is the attitudes Like the vibe is different now In 2024 than it was in 2022 and I think a lot of that is because Employers are They over hired because they just wanted to like Grab a whole bunch of talent and hoard it And that was like we've got all this talent if we need it We can use it we have plenty of cash Like Apple, Google, like all these giant corporations Have tons of cash they don't know what to spend it on So they were spending it on talent Bringing a bunch of people on that they didn't necessarily need And just doing lots of speculative Projects but what happened was When the going got a little bit tougher They were like hey let's cut some of these people loose And so the market was flooded with You know mid level engineers And it became extremely difficult As an entry level engineer to find Really anything and so that Sentiment spread and I think It's definitely harder To get a job now than it was in 2022 as a developer And people I think are blaming AI and like the jobs being automated But what's really at Fault like the real cause And AI may be a contributor at least in Deluded managers minds they may think Oh you just leave right a lot of people just looked at Elon Musk And said oh he fired everybody and like Twitter's still up Twitter's still up but I can tell you as a frequent user Of Twitter that it is a shadow Of his former self and that I see a lot Of nastiness on Twitter that I didn't see Before and you know the Features have not been like super I don't think it's a super wall road company Frankly not that it was ever a wall road Company Mark Zuckerberg used to joke that Twitter was a bunch of Like a clown car that accidentally crashed Into a gold mine And if you read the book catching Twitter it's just like It's like what not to do As a leader basically

But

my point is a lot of people look To people like Elon Musk who's just like fire everybody And so you see this hurting you see all these Managers laying people off and Even Apple which historically Like never laid people off not since like the 1990s had they done like a layoff And they laid people off right You know something's bad when Apple which has I don't know more than 100 billion dollars in cash that it's just holding And it's choosing to lay people

off

And it's not because it's like It's because they over hired in my opinion And because now the cost of capital is much Higher and interest rates have changed And there's a lot more uncertainty with AI I think the uncertainty is much more Significant than the actual you know Net improvement in Productivity as an individual Developer so you have managers Who think like oh I can just like have One developer do the job of 10 developers if They're using AI I don't believe that to be the case I use AI all the time like I Probably talk to LLMs More than I talk to any single human being other than My wife and my kids I would say right now my product my personal Productivity increase has Probably been like 20 % That's exactly what I was going to say 20 % It's nice it's helped me I continue to use it I will I appreciate every time it Gets better but Yeah 20 % improvement's not Going to dramatically Change your engineering team structure right Yeah so you could like lay off one of every five Developers maybe One of every six or something exactly I'm not sure exactly how the math shakes out but But yeah and that's Basing it on you know the Productivity increase but Like we haven't laid anybody off like we don't Believe that and we're using this stuff Extensively internally There's just been so much work to be done we just Shift people around so I can talk about how We're shifting the team around but let me talk about Just a little bit about people who are on the job market If you're listening to this if you're on the job market Trying to get a job as a developer The jobs are going to come back hang in there There's like a very slow correction Takes forever for these hiring cycles To happen takes forever for the Gardner hype cycle to you know ride the Wave from you know the peak Of inflated expectations to the trout Of disillusionment to the plateau Of productivity right Like if you're familiar with the Gardner hype cycle It's this phenomenon that pretty much every technology Has gone through and LLM's are going through that and when People say yeah they're talking about LLM's That's been like the major breakthrough So I think that If you're in a situation where You are trying to learn to code and you're hoping To get a developer job my Advice would be you know don't quit your day job The same thing I've always been saying like if you're working At a Starbucks or if you've got a job Like some you know accounting consultancy Like I worked as an accountant for a while like Doing like temp work essentially moving from company to Company doing that sort of stuff it sucked But keep doing that Whatever's paying the bills whatever's keeping food On the table and like keeping you like Keep paying down your debt and doing all that stuff Right but Just plan long term expect it to take A couple years the days when You know like if you look at the pre 2000 bubble if you had like Basic HTML CSS skills if you knew Like how to run a web server or like FTP Some files or something like that you could get a job As a web designer right and now And then in 2012 ish I would say people started like It really became the tools became so good That like a lot of people could get jobs As like WordPress developers or doing Basic Ruby on Rails work that's what My first job was doing Rails dev On a small team just maintaining a Rails Code base and over time It's gotten a little bit harder but The jobs were increasing so we Didn't really think too much about it it's just like oh Now we got to learn React now we got to learn about Like you know a whole lot of security Considerations we've got to think About accessibility like there's always been this Layering of additional things you need to learn And that's not going to go away it's just going to get harder and harder In terms of the actual skills that you Need to know to work as a software engineer But at the same time The number of openings started to fall So now there's this bigger gap Between like what needs to be learned And the rewards or the Likeliness of being able to find a job And I do think that if you just continue Applying for jobs patiently as you continue To build your skills your network your Reputation then you will Eventually get a developer job but it may Take a little bit longer now Than it took in 2022 That is kind of my thinking on that So my advice to people Who are on the job market is just be patient And keep learning and don't Give up because if you give up you're never Going to get a developer job right but if you Keep at it you will eventually be able to build Out you know through your Community through people you know Through different social groups you're a Part of hopefully you're going out and putting Yourself out there and trying to meet People through building projects and Publishing stuff on you know Twitter or Reddit Wherever you share your Stuff eventually you're going to have like a Decent portfolio maybe you're going to build a big You know impressive app That ties a bunch of stuff together and is Impressive from an engineering standpoint and you're going to be able to Get a job it's just going to be a grind On that note of applying Yourself to this job I wonder how Much opportunity there is for somebody who Has a skill Let's say in a Domain I'm being vague Because I don't know how to be clear There's a lot of opportunity where at least I see A lot of opportunity where you can apply a Technological solution to a non Technological problem Where as you can Go and spend a lot of time On free code camp and learn a lot of different skill sets And then here's a domain that doesn't Have a lot of people Leveraging web tech Software or anything That's even just remotely Non backwards from like the way it used To be to let's just say Involving software you know Is there any opportunity like that where you're not Just looking for a job but looking for like You're not just Creating future software developers But future software entrepreneurs Or people who could be entrepreneurial in Their pursuit because they can come alongside An entrepreneur and level up Their ideas so much because they just never Applied technology to the sales Process or to the marketing processes Or any of these things where it's not Just simply engineering it's simply A plan that would be considered like just Software skills. Yeah so I think Like I'm reluctant to Push people toward entrepreneurship because Everybody pushes people toward entrepreneurship And that often means financial ruin But I do think that if you Can work as a consultant and essentially Like you meet somebody at The library or at the gym or something and they're telling you What they do and they're like discussing like One question I always ask people is like what's the most Frustrating part of your day to day And that like helps identify like oh yeah I have to deal with these TPS reports or Whatever right and then it's like okay well What if I like wrote a script that just like Did that for you and you just You know go to a website and click a button And it did those for

you

and they're like Oh that's possible. Yeah I guess that's kind of where I'm leaning towards Like this automation idea like there's a lot of There's a lot of people who just don't Get to a level where They can even leverage Zapier Or If This Then That like just these Platforms alone are so powerful And there's a lot of things you can Even do self hosted in your own home that Is kind of interesting in Your own domain but I'm just Thinking like your Dementor seems to push people towards Or guide people towards Becoming a software engineer and going To work for someone else when The liberating idea might be Being liberated from having To have a typical 9 to 5 I work for somebody else job That software development To me and you can concur with this Jerry because you've done this too it's liberated Us to make our own choices to do our own Thing and to work on our own thing Not just somebody else's thing Yeah well I've talked to tons of People so Free Code Game has a podcast And I've interviewed I've done like More than 100 interviews there including like Jeff Atwood And Joel Spolsky and David Malan The Harvard professor and people like that And a lot of the people That I've interviewed have been Entrepreneurial in the sense that they didn't necessarily Work for very many people or they didn't even Necessarily work as a developer for people maybe they Had lots of other jobs but they were able to Build a consultancy or they were able to build A product focused company And potentially raise money or get enough Grassroots support to bootstrap it into A sustainable organization I think that my general advice Would be that is a little riskier Than just going out and getting paid to learn By getting a job somewhere So like I always push people in the direction of like If you want to de -risk Your future go just work For somebody else and they've already figured out like the Money part of it and they figured out how to offer You this salary and then you can take That salary or you know That contractor compensation Per month or whatever like and then You can just take that money and you can Get paid to learn and so I always encourage people to go work for somebody else First just to de -risk it a little bit And you'll learn a ton on somebody else's time But I would say Absolutely if you've already worked as a developer You should consider Entrepreneurial opportunities but Everybody and their dog is selling some Book about entrepreneurship or they've got some Podcasts talking about like entrepreneurship and I just Want to make it abundantly clear like I think that entrepreneurship Is great but I think it's great to Work for somebody else first You know like Jeff Bezos worked for many Years for other people before He founded Amazon right like And that's true of most and by the way Like I think this is the second time I mentioned Jeff Bezos I don't even think I'm like a Jeff Bezos Stan or anything like that Tell a fanboy over there I can tell But I think it's hard to argue that he's been Extremely effective at accomplishing his goal Which maybe was just to make a ton of money Right and I think there's something To learn there regardless of your opinion Of him as a human being like You know don't judge the teacher but judge like The teaching I guess So you can take a look at a lot Of successful people and usually At the beginning of their successful journey They were working for somebody else and learning Making a ton of mistakes on their dime and then taking The lessons from that experience then applying It so that they had sufficiently de -risked Their own endeavor and the other Thing I'll point out is most people who are successful Entrepreneurs at least in the United States are Not 20 -somethings that dropped out of college And stuff like that they're People in their 40s right That have already lived through some Experience and have like a much more high Resolution model of how The world works and how business Gets done and how things Get done and rules and regulations And like you know how Financial reporting works all these Different things that you will learn just working in a Giant corporation for a while the dynamic of Managers like it's hard to be a good manager If you've never been managed those Kinds of things obviously you know Adam you served in the military right like You learned probably a tremendous amount about How the world works by flying around You know Bosnia and places like that And seeing it on the ground And being part of a hierarchy Right that is invaluable so I don't want you all to think like I'm just like some puppet for The man or something like that but like really Go out and work for other people first And you're gonna learn so much and you're gonna Just de -risk I know I'm being extremely Rid on it and I've said that like three times but I genuinely think It's an important lesson that you may not be hearing From enough people you may be hearing Oh just go for it

I think you just don't want to be An entrepreneurial guru is the thing You're just really against being the Entrepreneur guru I mean Adam doesn't agree I think that Unless you grew up and you were like Twelve years old Selling something on the corner Like you were like some people are just sales People from the start you know like they're making Money they're hustling at twelve thirteen fourteen like Yeah go ahead they start their first Business at the age of eighteen Most of us do Well to learn on somebody Else's dime and just work for them Let them make the mistakes let them make the Profits right you get your wage And you get your education along the way And then after a little while Then yeah maybe it's your turn to strike Out and take a shot at it but you can sure Avoid a lot Of easy errors By working for somebody else for a little While so I don't disagree Yeah and I'll just tell you like my own personal experience Which I've written about at length in My book which is freely available You got a book? Yeah just Google learn to code book And it should be one of the first results Yeah I published that and there's an audio book That's on my podcast feed if you want to hear me read it

If

you want to listen to four hours There's some kids banging on pianos in the background But basically like my journey Has very much been like I worked as a teacher And a school director for like ten years And I built up domain expertise In adult education Before I learned how to code And before I learned how to apply it And build something that people would actually use And found useful so that is my Journey but you may absolutely if you're Listening to this you may just be one of those people that Never had to work for somebody else and was always so resourceful That you could conjure money Out of you know the wealthy people around you Or something like that and then sustain yourself Off of them or you know maybe you did Progress from lemonade stand to Like you know selling cell phones To like whatever the entrepreneurial journey was That took you to where you are But I will say that I do think That for every person who succeeded That there are lots of people Who have a lot of debt And are probably you know Their family won't talk to them because they borrowed money from their family And like all this other stuff right I saved up about $150 ,000 working as a teacher Working as a school director just putting money Into index funds and waiting Right and I had that money To call upon when I needed to Sustain myself and provide for my family While we were going through the first few years Of free cocaine like we had basically zero revenue For the first three years we got tax Exempt status from the IRS and at that point we Started accepting tax deductible donations From the community and that and we just Gradually built that up and you Know now we have more than 11 ,000 People around the world who donate To free cocaine each month like recurring Monthly donations right and That's how we sustain ourselves and It took a lot of time and it took A lot of patient work but now we have That freedom we don't have like VCs Calling us asking us when we're gonna Raise another round or exit or trying To like sit in you know we don't have Some board of directors that's like telling us what to do We've got a couple people that I knew before Free cocaine started who were business people And like accountants and stuff like that who are On our board and I just meet with them every Three months and tell them what's going on They're like cool and we just keep doing It right it's like super like but We've worked very hard to navigate into This position of Independence and I've worked very hard To learn what I needed to learn To where I could be you know the Person I guess at the top who's not accountable To like a whole bunch of other people but is rather Accountable to a community around A community of peers rather than being Accountable to like you know some person Above you and I think that's what people like if You ask people why they go into entrepreneurship Some people might be like I want to be rich You know Rick James right But I think a lot of people Just want to be free from All the nonsense that comes with having You know this big hierarchy above You right like when I talk to people in the military Like that's the biggest complaint about people Not that the mission is Flawed or anything like that but it's usually just like Yeah I just had this one you know Officer above me Who was like made my life miserable Or something like that right like or like I just you know I didn't have any Agency they were just telling me where to go and I had to go And I had no recourse or I get court -martialed or something Like that right like people don't want to live their lives Or they're just being bossed around they want to just be free They want to have you know that That proverbial like house Where they can mow their lawn and they can Buy their own damn business and nobody bothers them Except during tax time you know Well a lot of us would like to avoid that Particular annoyance as well but That's a different podcast Yeah I 100 % agree I think there's a The law of diminishing returns Applies to almost everything Including how much money you have And can make at a certain point We've talked to many people who've made it And the money stops driving them Because it's just like well that's just not a thing And you think satisfaction is at the end of that Particular like high watermark And it turns out No it's way way way lower In terms of now that this money Has taken care of my base needs I don't have that Stress of anxiety of If my car has a You know if I have a $400 bill Emergency bill I can't pay that Like when you get past that point When you're like yeah I can pay my bills I can pay my mortgage Put food on the table Maybe have a little bit of spending money You know to do a vacation or To scratch an itch Or a hobby At a certain point the liberty and the freedom Is way more valuable Than that next Million or whatever that number happens to be in your head So I'm with you on that Dylan Fox Dylan tell me about Universal One This is the newest most powerful Speech AI model to date You released this recently, tell me more

So Universal One is our Flagship industry leading

Model for speech to text And various other speech understanding tasks So it's about a year long Effort that really is the culmination of Like the years that we've spent Building infrastructure and tooling Out of assembly to even train large scale Speech AI models It was trained on about 12 and a half million Hours of voice data, multilingual Super wide range of Domains and sources of audio data So it's a super robust model We're seeing developers use it for extremely high Accuracy, low cost, super Fast speech to text and speech Understanding tasks within their products Within automations, within workflows That they're building at their companies Or within their products So Dylan one thing I love is This playground you have, you can go there assemblyai .com playground and you can just play Around with all the things that is Assembly, is this the Recommended path, is this the Try before you buy experience, what can people do? Yeah so our playground is A GUI experience Over the API that's free, you can just Go to it on our website assemblyai .com Slash playground, you drop An audio file, you can talk to the playground And it's a way to in a no code environment We did interact with our models Interact with our API to see what Our models and what our API can do Without having to write any code Then once you see what the models can do And you're ready to start building with the API You can quickly transition to the API docs Start writing code, start integrating our SDKs Into your code to start leveraging Our models and all our tech Via our SDKs instead Okay constantly updated Speech AI models at your fingertips Well at your API Fingertips that is A good next step is to go to their playground You can test out their models for free Right there in the browser Or you can get started with a $50 credit At assemblyai .com Slash practicalai Again that's assemblyai .com Slash practicalai And also by our friends over at Wix I've got just 30 seconds To tell you about Wix Studio The web platform for freelancers Agencies and enterprises So here are a few things You can do in 30 seconds Or less on Studio 1. Integrate, extend And write custom scripts in a VS code Based IDE 2. Leverage zero setup dev Test and production environments 3. Ship faster with An AI code assistant 4. Work with Wix headless APIs on any tech stack Wix Studio is for devs who build websites Sell apps, go headless or manage Clients Well my time is up but the list keeps going on Step into Wix Studio and see for yourself Go to wix .com Slash studio, once again wix .com Slash studio Can we talk curriculum? That's what I really want to talk about Yeah, okay, awesome, let's do it Let's talk curriculum So you have the core curriculum Of course it's expanded and changed And you have a legacy curriculum because you've Probably rewritten things over the years And it's probably like the main thing That you think about Is curriculum Reaching more people I don't know, it's probably like your core two things I would guess A lot of the curriculum is web development oriented Of course it doesn't stop there I'm sure you'll tell me the plethora of things But if somebody was going to start today I'm just thinking about web as a platform For success And how it's changed and we have these silos Now and there's a lot of Aggregation of profits to a few Small organizations And I'm wondering how viable the web is As a platform For future endeavors Is that a place where we as Developers or wannabe developers Should be still Investing and honing On web development as a starting place Or should I be looking into Data science, should I be looking into robotics What Is smart for somebody who's trying To get into the game or Invest in themselves, maybe Switch their focus in the game So I would still encourage people to start with web And the reason why is about half of all Developer jobs are web focused You hear about mobile app development And really that is just a mobile app Skin

on

top of a bunch of APIs that are running on the web You hear about a lot Of machine learning and things like that It's true that machine learning is distinct From web development I can talk about the big changes we're making With the curriculum, but I would say The skills that you learn Data structures, algorithms Everything you learn while you're Learning to be a full stack Web developer, virtually all That is transferable. Almost everybody Is going to need to create Some sort of website Or some sort of mobile app Or some sort of integration with an existing Platform through an API That serves whatever it is That they're creating. Whether they're creating Data science insights Most data scientists have to deal with Data visualization. They have to figure out how to Get what's in their Jupyter notebook Or wherever it is they're crunching the numbers They need to figure out how to Get that in a place where people Who are making decisions based on those data Can consume them And understand them Web does touch pretty much everything That's why I recommend starting with that A lot of people would say start with Systems engineering Software systems engineering And learning how C works because everything Is built on top of C Doing the classic computer science Degree program Work of building your own compiler Building your own operating system Maybe your own search engine, building your own LLM Doing all those things And then a lot of people would say You should just focus on Machine learning because that's the future Everybody's going to be telling the machine In English what to do And I've written a lot about this in my book and I do believe That in the future programming will consist Of talking in natural language Highly structured natural language To a computer the way that people on Star Trek talk to the computer and the computer Builds things on the holodeck and does things Like that but that still requires Knowledge of the different layers Of abstraction below and in Order to effectively get things done with Technology to some extent you do want to Understand how that technology works and I think A lot of people do have like a decent understanding Of how you know RAM works How motherboards work, how hard drives Work, how buses work Like a lot of the actual Computer engineering stuff that like You know the software is operating on Top of and we can certainly get Much more higher resolution Understanding of that by looking at the underlying Operating system you know kernel and things Like that I will tell you what the Free Code Game curriculum is doing but Like in general I do recommend if you're not sure Where to start, start in web and then Work out from there and don't feel like Oh websites are like you know nobody Uses websites anymore like that's just the Tip of the iceberg of what Web development is like gaming Any sort of field where You're essentially writing software there's going to be Some component that travels over The internet right and so a lot of those Principles so without belaboring that Point any further I will tell you Where the Free Code Game curriculum is heading Okay okay please do About six months ago the CEO of CompTIA reached out to me Really chill dude Named Todd Thibodeau And he said he said I love Free Code Camp I use it every day where can I Send a donation I was like okay cool And I sent him like our bank details

And

he sent a wire Of a quarter million dollars Wow yeah so I'm like awesome this is great Like I need to learn more about CompTIA I made like a tweet you know Thanking CompTIA for their gift And then it was just amazing The feedback on that tweet like Everybody was jumping in and saying amazing things About CompTIA like oh yeah CompTIA You know I've been A plus certified Or I have had the Security plus and it's been like you know Everybody at my company has to get security plus As part of their continuing education All these people talking about it people are getting CompTIA certification as part of their degree program All that stuff and I was like whoa There's so much interest in These rigorous CompTIA type certifications We've always had rigorous certifications But they've never been like industry Style certifications it's always been like Proof of learning is how we look at them right Like you complete a Free Code Camp certification You build all the projects you've got tons of proof of learning And people ask me oh can I get a job with My Free Code Camp certification and I always said It's a proof of learning it's one of many Like a basket of things that are on your resume That make you a compelling candidate For a job but I've never said like Oh you know it's like a guaranteed job and I don't think Any certifications guarantee jobs or anything like that Some of them may have like employer placement programs PMI is another organization The Project Management Institute And there's ICS2 ICS2 They're like all these other organizations that have These professional certifications and I was like wow Maybe Free Code Camp could move more in that direction We can create Professional certifications we can make them free And we can make them on topics that other Certification programs aren't covering So we are We're working on four Professional certifications that are Going to like somewhat replace our existing Curriculum like the course work Will always be there will always have the legacy certifications Right but what we're Doing is we're building a single Much more comprehensive Linear web development Curriculum called Certified full stack Developer you earn this Through completing here I've got I've actually got a list of all the course Work that is currently in this Certification so it's about 3 ,000 hours of course work You learn semantic HTML, accessibility, CSS Fundamentals, Flexbox, design Concepts, Typography, you learn how to work In a code editor, get your code environment Set up, JavaScript fundamentals, high order Functions and callbacks, DOM manipulation Algorithmic thinking, object oriented programming Functional programming, data structures Dynamic programming, web standards, react fundamentals Type script fundamentals, testing Concepts, bash scripting, SQL and relational Databases, Git, security and privacy Node, Express, security For web developers specifically Like OWASP, working with APIs AI engineering fundamentals And how to get a developer job And you're going to learn a ton of Python as part of that too Because we use Python as kind of our back end Language so that is A very comprehensive web development Curriculum that not only Is it going to involve the traditional Free Code Camp core gameplay loop of Building a bunch of projects Because Free Code Camp has always been all about Building projects but we are adding A whole lot of additional stuff One of the biggest feedback Piece of feedback we've had over the years is we've Leaned way too much into Learning by doing and a lot of people want More conceptual stuff and we've always said Oh just go to Free Code Camp, just keep doing it And it's like wax on wax off right and like Mr. Miyagi Teaching you how to Do all the basic karate movements Without actually having to like do the karate Itself or maybe you're doing the karate but you Don't actually know why you're doing what you're doing So it's been very you know learned by Doing and we've minimized kind of the Theory that we've given people and we've just told people Oh go over to the YouTube channel, read the books that we publish Every week and you'll get plenty of Theory but what we're actually doing Is we're working to incorporate that so Not only are we going to have the interactive step By step project building we're going to have 64 of those But we're also going to have 513 Lectures which are just like 3 to 5 Minute videos talking about different concepts Everything from like different you know Design patterns and things like that to You know how a system on a chip works Stuff like that right and then we're going to have 83 labs Which are basically just you have a test suite And you have a blank canvas and you have to write the code To get that entire test suite to pass And then we're also adding a lot more Spaced repetition so we're adding 66 Quizzes and 6 preparation Exams then we're adding a big Capstone project and then we're adding A final exam and that'll be conducted Through like an audited Testing environment that we're building It's open source so We're building our own flutter app Where you can go and you can take exams Stuff like that and then If you pass the human Curated capstone if you pass If you build all those different projects It's like more than 100 projects and If you pass the exam then you become A certified web developer And then you have that certification for 3 years And then you have to do some Continuing education to keep it Refreshed every 3 years so it's very Similar to all the other big industry certifications All of them expire after 3 years all of them Require you to do the additional Coursework continuing education but The big distinction with free code camp We put this word at the beginning of our name And we're sticking to it What's that word again? Free Free? This certification Is going to be completely free Free? Wow. So all the course Work is free all the prep work you can take The exam for free right there's no exam We actually built our own environment because we didn't want to pay Prometric or whatever we didn't want you To have to pay them 100 bucks 200 bucks to take some Environment where you're like sitting in front of your computer Taking an exam and they're watching you and stuff right We wanted to be able to do all that stuff ourselves So we can keep the marginal cost as near Zero as possible so that we can offer It completely free That sounds amazing That's my entire commentary That sounds amazing What's the state of this New curricula? We're going to launch some of it in time for Christmas So this is the first of four Plan certifications the other one We're doing a machine learning focused certification All of them are very heavy on Python We think Python is the future And you're going to use JavaScript for the web Development obviously it's the lingua franca of the web But almost everything is like going really deep On Python we're using relational databases Extensively We're going very low level with Especially okay so the three Other certification machine certified machine Learning engineer certified Data scientist certified Software systems engineer Software systems engineer a lot of C A lot of working with compilers A lot of building You know systems that might run on Like a satellite right Or might run in like you know a self driving Car or some sort of mission critical Code right that's extremely high Performance and that can be very deeply NC Quincy mission critical code in C That's how they do it right They'll build some layers of Abstraction on top of it but if you like go I mean yeah that's hilarious We're going to go all the way down the stack I know that's how they do it I'm not sure if that's how they should Continue to do it for our new Our new people should be learning perhaps A memory safe low level language Well we want people to be able to work with The extensive corpus of Legacy code bases out there I get it man Many of which are decades old The cobalt systems that are running the unemployment Office and stuff like that right So So why not teach it Why not teach people as much as possible Like we can teach everything right There's no limit and if you are Willing to invest the Time to complete a three thousand Hour curriculum that is Five hundred plus micro lectures And like a whole bunch of projects and stuff Like that like that is a Significant commitment we think like maybe like One or two percent of people who start it are going to actually Go all the way to the end and that's why we're Able to like offer like everything for free Because like actually going through and like looking At a capstone project and providing the Exam and all that stuff like very Few people will make it all the way to the end of it But that's by design because I think a lot of people Will get it's like an Inverted pyramid a lot of people are going to get a Tremendous amount of value before they even

Complete

it and they're going to walk away just having A much better understanding of Programming and technology and appreciation for how To build software and some basic Know how for how to build software but they won't necessarily Make it all the way

to

the end Where they're like job ready and that's One of the things we just need to accept like I have always said anyone Who is sufficiently motivated Can learn to code that does not mean that Everybody's going to be able to go out and work as a software engineer Like like you need to really care And you need like I think gone are the days Where you could just Learn a little bit like like the three month boot camp Type things and we've never been About that we've always been about like rigor Right rigor but accessibility those are The two words that permeate all of our discussions As a team as a community about where We should go we want things to be super rigorous You know how we are developing the university Degree program which has been in development For a few years we've got a few of the Courses done we're still figuring out Like the accreditation process and everything It's a 2030s thing but we are still working On it and what we did Was we looked at the top 20 computer science Programs in the United States You know Carnegie Mellon MIT Stanford Caltech we Looked what are they teaching and then we built like A composite curriculum around what they're teaching And we made sure that we're teaching all the engineering Math all the you know the hardcore Engineering and science Computer science concepts that they're covering And all the applied stuff So we built our curriculum based on that We're like trying to be as Rigorous as possible we think that we can be There's no reason why we can't be much more rigorous Than at MIT because they only Have four years right like if you Actually went through and earned all four of these free code camp Certifications it might represent 12 or 15 years Of expenditure but like If you're like me and you just insist on Learning like that's That's one thing if I can talk about myself a little bit Like I am obsessed with Learning I want to unlock I want To die with a fully unlocked skill tree Right like if I'm not Learning about programming and technology I'm studying foreign languages I'm learning Musical instruments I'm Trying to learn more about other world Cultures and traveling to different places and talking With people you know I'm just obsessed With knowing as much as there can be known You know there's this Back in Ben Franklin's time You could in theory kind of know Everything there was to know Right you could read all the books you could talk to all the important People and correspond with them through letters And you could have this kind of life of mind Where you felt that you had A pretty good understanding Of this corporeal world That we're walking around This surface that we're all Anchored to right This prison in space that we're never Escaping unless we figure out worm holes Right there was a time when you Could know all that stuff but there's just been this Commodatorial explosion of stuff to know And I feel like It's this great challenge this endeavor The universe is taunting Me with how much it has for me To learn and I feel obsessed with learning it The universe

is

taunting me I love it I think that that's what Vast majority of people in the free cooking Curriculum like I suspect That we're all kindred spirits and we all Love learning at the end of the day Yes we need to put food on the table We need to get skills that pay the bills Right but We also love the Process of learning and we don't look at it As a labor we look at it As kind of like a pursuit of Joy yeah so And I think that describes A lot of the human condition I think humans are naturally Curious and they naturally when they Reach the top of one peak they look around they see a Higher peak they want to get there You know I think that's just how Human ambition works and a lot of People feel human ambition in terms of Accumulating resources right Making sure that they have like You know I liken Wealth to like a water tower it's good To have a water tower there in case we lose Power in case something really bad happens the town still Has water but at some point There's diminishing marginal returns To having a whole lot of water Towers right how many Water towers does the town really need Right but yet you have billionaires Who consist you know still want To acquire more and more and I feel like they're in this This kind of like impoverished Doom loop of just maximizing resources When what they could be maximizing Is knowledge And the human experience so Yeah anyway I'll get off my soapbox But like that is what really fires me up And what drives me is the prospect of Being able to have the world's most rigorous Curriculum and at the same Time the most accessible curriculum that's Free that runs right in a browser Or in a mobile app we've got these great Flutter powered mobile apps where you can learn And yeah That's what drives me and There is another big thing I want to say about The curriculum too I know Like this has mostly been me just ranting Rant away okay so We're working on

this

English Or maybe not I'm just kidding English English Quincy we already speak English You and I And Adam speak English As native English speakers That represents about you know Six of the people on earth right There's more than a billion English Speakers but there are also a lot of people who Grew up speaking Arabic who grew up speaking Chinese Who grew up speaking Russian, Ukrainian Who grew up speaking all these different world Languages Spanish being probably the biggest In the Free Code Camp community and They can improve their English too And in fact they probably already learned a tremendous Amount of English if they went to school because English is taught in basically every high school Program on earth right Because English is the language of Science it's the language of business Thanks to Hollywood It's arguably the language of like Pop culture and yet It's a very difficult language to learn it takes Years and years of Commitment to studying It takes years and years of practice talking with Other people who speak English and not Everybody has access to those resources And we wanted to make sure there was a free English curriculum so anybody Can ramp up their English toward That of a native speaker now will they ever Actually get to native level that's arguable I've been studying Chinese and Japanese for 20 years and I'd argue I'm like Maybe like a fourth grader you know In those languages but they will Eventually get like pretty Good at it and then they're going to have access to so much More opportunities so we Have taken the European framework The CERF common European Something framework I can't remember the acronym And we it's like levels It's like A1, A2 B1, B2, C1, C2 We just started with A2 because everybody has A1 from high school we're not trying to teach Like the cat chased the ball You know we're not touching everything's In the context of working as a software In software so it's English for Developers and we're creating these Exams that are going to go ahead and like Be standard exams like you hear People taking the TOEFL, the TOEIC The IELTS all these Cambridge exams and stuff like that We're introducing our own exams And we're just going to have a free alternative To those exams we're also creating all the Coursework and it's fun interactive Animated like dialogues And stuff like that so We've already published all of A1 I think the certification exam is going to come Live soon it's going to be the same exam Environment we're using to issue The certification exams For the full stack developer Certified full stack developer And people will be able to improve their English On Free Code Camp and get certified in that as well Very cool That English stuff wasn't our Transcripts going to be used for some of that or there was an Endeavor you all were putting together With our transcripts to be involved somehow Yes so the Changelog has maintained pristine Transcriptions from like way Back like you always have Had a big eye toward accessibility And a lot of people prefer just reading things And just skimming things in text they want to search through it right And you all have like one of the Best corpuses of podcast Transcripts in existence And so of course like this data Set is amazing and I think you've made it open data and so Yeah we're working with a data scientist to Analyze that the practical Answer to that is things have been busy And we've obviously been working on a lot of different stuff But that is still something we're trying to mine For insights as we get to the higher level Parts of the curriculum because Obviously like the conversation you and I are having Right now

that

is Probably nearing like native level To be able to grok everything For sure for sure yeah That's exciting I'll have to work on my English In order to live up to that you know Quincy if there's people are gonna be looking at us Adam And saying this is expert level English We should We should work on it don't you think Adam? I try I try you know Every once in a while I slur and Murmur I would say one of the biggest opportunities In like with the advent of LLM's and the study improvement In their quality is in language learning Like you can have a conversation partner that's Infinitely patient with your bad grammar And with your restricted vocabulary can even Adapt what it's saying in effect Like when I as an English teacher You know when I talk to somebody who's relatively Beginner at English I can Kind of modulate what I say and like I know What the highest frequency English words are And what they're likely to have encountered at that Point and kind of gauge their level and then Talk at that level to make it easier for them to understand I mean Wikipedia has like simple English Which is basically English Using just the thousand or so Most common English words and they figure out Ways the guy who does I think it's the guy who does XKCD Wrote like a book where it's basically he Explains like how rockets work and like all these other Technologies using like very simple words Which is kind of a fun little gimmick But like I can't remember examples But they're really silly like the way he describes Like you know the nose cone of like a rocket Or some like silly things like that right And you can absolutely change how you Communicate when you're communicating to Non native English speakers I presume A lot of the people listening to this have native Level English proficiency grew up speaking it Probably many of them have like Advanced degrees that they attain sitting in Lectures where their professors were Rambling in like big highfalutin words Right so I'm Not modulating my speech at all this is just how I talk In like kind of like a Free environment where I'm not really thinking about what I'm Going to say ahead I was just talking I was just spitballing No modulation required But like with an LLM You know you can like even prompt it You can say I am fourth grade Reading level Japanese speaker My native language is English So you're probably going to notice a lot of weird things Quirks in how I speak Japanese based on English being my native language they're like somebody Who was like a Swahili speaker You know they might use slightly different grammar They may be making different grammar Mistakes than I'm making you know things like that so So you can like really tee up a really good Prompt and you can learn languages I don't think we need special apps for that Though I just go in and talk to GPT4 In Japanese or in Chinese And practice that way Yeah it seems like a system prompt you know you can have custom System prompts for different sessions and you Could have one that just has that in there So that it you don't have to say it every single time You enter into a chat I definitely Can see by the way here I Am still the English level for your you know whatever You're not having to by the way the LLM Every time you talk I do have an insight though What's that? Maybe it's kind of embarrassing To some degree even as an insight And I've never I suppose never to this conversation Have I truly compared Free Code Camp or at least Saw you in similarity to the Quality level that MIT Or Carnegie Mellon or other Well known you know Incumbent educational Sources let's just say these are schools Maybe not so much in quality But also not even I don't even want Don't be degraded by this when I say this but even In seriousness I know you're super Serious but the fact that They have brick and mortar Walls doesn't make Them more or less capable or serious Than you are but you've You've clearly been able to Cultivate the right people Cultivate curriculum And not just Create a free resource which Is kind of easy You create something you make it free That's the easy part it's creating the quality Something that's free That's also quite usable by the global Market to be a differentiator That is the truly truly hard part And MIT Has lots of alumni money Carnegie Mellon has lots of Alumni money you know Harvard has this similarity of Alumni money How in the world One the similarity to Your ability to compete I'm assuming you're now competing with Because you're free Not just because you're free but because you're free and Good at least with this latest curriculum You're going to launch and the ambitions Of it how in the world Have you been able to I know you have a teacher background and Jared And I know you well so the audience This is not the first time we're talking to Quincy by the way How in the world did you Meet the right kind of people Attract the right kind of people like compress That part but have The right kind of people give these lectures Develop the curriculum Have the actual knowledge to put It out there to structure It in a way to make it Curriculum not just a lesson Curriculum which Has a different connotation to It to even do this in the First place like that to me is the Is the hard part It's not the easy part Yeah well if you compare Free Code Camp to An organization like Harvard like Four hundred years of history the oldest university In the United States an endowment Of maybe like a hundred billion At least sixty billion I think last time I checked that's a lot of money They have that they can draw from To do different initiatives to invest In research things like that and if you look at What they're trying to accomplish first of all They're trying to bring people from all over the world They have to deal with like immigration offices And all these different countries They are also trying to You know house those people feed those people Maintain partnerships with like the vendors On the campus keep the gym Equipment up to date you know Manage like sports programs Interface with all different kinds of regulatory Bodies that they have Like this very structured Kind of traditional university System that dates back hundreds of Years where professors like go from Like adjuncts or postdocs To you know associate professors And then full professors And gradually get tenure and like They have like for every professor They usually have like an administrator or two As well who's running various programs They have a lot they need to comply with Curriculum is just one of Many many things That they think about right Free Code Camp is all we think about We just we're a community that has A giant curriculum and then we have lots of Extracurricular resources and stuff like that but It's really just like the core gameplay loop Of coming to the community Learn a whole bunch then turn around and start Contributing as an open source contributor To the code base or start creating courses That we publish on the YouTube channel Or start writing articles writing full length Books that we publish on the Free Code Camp Publication That's kind of like because All we're focused on is just this One specific thing and we don't have any Of that stuff we don't have an office we don't have You know a football team we don't have any of that stuff right We can just focus on This

core

thing but it Turns out what a lot of people actually care About when they go to a university Is not whether there's gonna be like a Really nice you know lazy river Around the dormitory Facilities or something like that right It's not whether like how many climbing walls do they have You know it's not those kinds Of things it's what am I gonna Learn and how am I gonna use that To get a job right so To some extent we kind of like distilled The main thing that we thought was important and we Just focused on that and eschewed All the other stuff and we have that Luxury because we're not a 400 year Old institution with all these existing Obligations and all these perceptions and stuff Like that we're a 10 year old Charity that like just kind Of like popped into being and just kind Of grew and like I have A full institutional memory of every single Decision that's been made along the way because I've been Part of it right so so to some extent Like we because we don't Face all the constraints that a traditional Institution faces we can just go like So you know in lots of parts Of the world they didn't have very good Phone infrastructure right They didn't have like lots of ground line And like it was a big deal even in You know rural America today Like a lot of people don't necessarily have like Good phone lines and stuff but cell phones came out And I kind of like leapfrogged that And now people just use cell phones Right and then Similar things with like fiber optic cable Satellites and now you can kind of leapfrog that to an extent Right so I view Free Code Campus kind of like we leapfrogged 400 years of Innovation and stuff and we were able to look at whatever we was doing And just choose what we thought worked And focus on something very narrow that we Thought we could do and everything is dictated by budget And everything is dictated by what we Likely can actually affect change in Which is developing a really good Programming curriculum and teaching some English and creating a bunch of extracurricular resources Like Free Code Campus YouTube channel We just published a course on music production Using Fruity Loops Studio right So we're going to be teaching lots of cool stuff We published a DaVinci Resolve course And you can argue oh that's not math, programming, computer science That's video production but the reality Is like by being pretty focused On just a few key things and doing a few Key things well and not trying to be everything to everybody The cost involved Is you know

A

tiny fraction Minuscule Are they threatened by you at all or are they Impressed, threatened, scared You know Gandhi said First they ignore you Then they laugh at you, then they fight you Then you win right And the joke Are they ignoring you? We're still at the ignoring point You're not even a pest That's a good place to be I was just thinking with this whole Especially I would say probably really since COVID It became Somewhat clear to some folks This idea that college is a scam And I suppose you can conflate the idea That university could be a scam So if you want to take those two words In college and university sometimes people will say I didn't go to college I went to university So okay whatever Yeah that is a person I do not want to go to a dinner party with Yeah A little too pedantic for my liking Well you can ask Brett Cannon I mean it's a little bit different in Canada In Canada college and university are quite different So anyways In some cases it's culturally normal But let's just say That there's a Hair of credence to the idea that college is a scam Not saying there is, I'm not trying to be political In this argument But if there's been some discredit To the idea of college There's been some recalibration To the value that Going to a school can bring

you And

so I suppose In that recalibration you have Well what are the alternatives And if you are a leapfrog Bypassing the You know hundreds of years Of institution You know why are you being ignored I don't know We can't read that face give me a real answer here I have no idea But I think first of all I don't think university is a scam I think it's overpriced If you were to make university free Then I think a ton of people would go And when I say university I mean like just getting a four year degree But college, what we call college in the United States By the way is just you know anything They could even include graduate school They could even include medical school if you're a physician When I was in school

A

lot of people just call it school Because it's just like this big abstract N years of learning that you have to go through So I think university Education is fine I don't think everything is perfect I think it's pretty inefficient I think you know the idea that you have to do Two years of general ed before you actually get to the core Of what your subject matter that you're studying I think There's plenty of things that you can Have fair critique on but what I think you can't critique Is if you were to remove all Costs from it then college would be I don't think college would be controversial At all I think pretty much everybody encouraged It's like saying education is a scam Right like if you're The question is is it worth the price Of admission right like if you're being Educated for free Like there's no scam there right If you're being educated for far too much money Now maybe we can say okay this is a scam Yeah exactly so Yeah at the end of the day it's education and so education If you can make it free is of immense Value which is what Quincy is doing And you know I think they'll continue to ignore you Maybe to their detriment but I was thinking about You know the Harvard football team And these ivy league football teams And I was amusing myself as you talked Quincy thinking about the free code camp Football team and what that might look like And then I had an idea you know A new institution for a Digital age Esports huh Like it's kind of a joke but maybe Like you have enough people involved You could very easily And cheaply put together a free code camp Esports initiative And you could just you know A little bit of merch maybe some Mountain dew whatever the esports people need That they power them Get some mountain dew and blaze it on my shirt And you could have a little free code camp League of Legends Free code camp rocket league team like you could have some teams And be like the first educational Institution that it truly embraces Esports that might be kind of cool So the main challenge I would have with that First of all that'd be encouraging people to special Like I've watched lots of documentaries and I do I play video games and stuff and the main challenge is First of all just like other physical sports Your acumen does Kind of decline with even Like a lot of pro gamers Might peak at like 25 and their reaction time Starts to go down sure sure sure and that's A problem like I like sports like chess And things like that and you could argue chess is kind of a Young man's game or a young woman's game but Sure you know I mean like You could still play pretty well Because it's not like synchronous like you're not having To make like hundreds of keyboard And mouse inputs per minute like With Starcraft or something like that right so I would say the biggest Problem with that is it would be encouraging People to get really good at video games when they should be Learning the code I always joke that like Free Code Games is not competing with universities We're not competing with you know Textbooks You wouldn't be because universities Are not doing Esports I mean you would be the Talk about reaching the next generation Of coders you know they're out there playing games man They're out there watching the experts Stream their games just an idea You don't have to commit to it He's resistant Yeah I know but he's Going to mull on it he's going to think about it Yeah so I just I worry that people Would think like oh I should instead of coding I could just be playing games and really You should be coding like competitive Programming is something I've considered For sure like we could have a competitive programming League there are lots of cool websites For sure you know that people use to do Competitive programming people ask about it How about a capture the flag Team the free code camp CTF team That might be kind of cool Yeah I mean these are great ideas Code games Jared Code games Code games are cool man These are also things that you know A very small team surgically focused on A curriculum I see these as kind of Like digressions and there's nothing wrong with That like we built a video game we built learn To code RPG I was just going to ask you about that Because this was my segue into This merging of the two things right Like when we last talked to you and I'm watching This video game stream behind you as we talk so I'm also Thinking games is you had This idea of like gamifying education And like getting this software Developer video game which you eventually Released a game right

Yeah

it's Basically like a visual novel type Game built in Renpie which is a great visual novel engine If you're looking for if you want to build something That people will actually play like you could write a book And good luck getting people to read it you have to Be really compelling and good at telling People to read your book and get them to read your book In 2024 but if you put it in a visual Novel suddenly people are very interested And like they'll just click through it on their lunch break While they're eating you know like I Do think that like the future of education Could resemble a game Like if you've read Ready Player One Like it's basically like the entire education System has been delegated to being A part of this you know big MMO Game The Oasis Yeah the Oasis I think that Yeah that is certainly important But at the same time I think that If you want to create people who are sufficiently Intrinsically motivated then You do want to kind of like pull back a little bit On the gamification and we used to use gamification A lot more than we do now and what we Noticed is it was kind of like incentivizing the wrong It was incentivizing compulsive Completion of things but it was like It wasn't done in the spirit of learning It was done out of like a sense of guilt and obligation Almost like I gotta keep my streak up and stuff like that Like Candy Crush style And so I think that there are a lot of There's a lot of danger In leaning too much into Games and learning But I don't want to sound like an old man yelling at a cloud Like no it's gotta be you know books And you gotta be sitting in a lecture listening to the old man You know squeaky Writing on the chalkboard you know I'm not that way at all But I do think that like No esports teams that's where you draw the line Well people swing like in these dramatic Directions like oh we're all doing AI chat bouts now and stuff like that I want to kind of be a voice of balance and reason So I do think The esports idea is a novel one and an Interesting one but yeah I don't know No I'm not asking you to commit right now I'm just looking for a spot on your Rocket League team that's all Oh okay okay Just kidding I'm terrible We'll just have to put you through the paces And we'll have to move you into the barracks Where we keep all the other Rocket League players Yeah I'm gonna have to move on campus It'll be in South Korea Okay wow this is getting more and more difficult I see you're raising the stakes It probably will be There's a lot of good players over there Uh hilarious Well what have we not plumbed Let's talk about the future real quick Future of education you know here we are Ten years in we've talked to you five years back I think we had talked in between as well But this is our anniversary episode Ten years of Free Code Camp Can you look is it even possible to look Ten years down the road and like you know Just think of what it might look like then He knows exactly where it's gonna be He does look at him he's like Show us the roadmap So we think like 50 years out 60 years out I think like in terms of You know what is likely to be accomplished Okay so if you go all the way back to the The first printing of the Gutenberg Bible The first mass produced Book in history It was more than like it was like 600 Years ago it was uh Just with the advent of the printing press And this book Came out and it brought literacy To everyone in the 1450s 1450s 600 plus years ago 670 years ago and still We have illiteracy I don't believe that AI is just gonna Magically change illiteracy I think that there are a lot of people Who just it's still hard To learn to read if nobody teaches you how to Read it's very difficult like I Hear all these things like people who have unschooled their kids And like like they haven't necessarily put effort Into teaching the kids There's just this idea that the kids will like naturally Learn how to read and some kids might But a lot of kids won't necessarily learn how to read And they'll end up you know not having Reading level nearly what their peers and it'll Be like a huge kind of like Crushing weight on their shoulders like I'm not good at reading right and they'll carry that with them And I feel like it's the same thing with technology Like people people certainly have this with math They're like oh I just suck at math you know I never learned how to do math and they always feel bad about themselves And they're always intimidated whenever They're like reading a book and there's some math or something like that Whenever they look at some equation That even the most simple equations When they're walking around the science museum and they're just like ugh You know they get this anxiety And people same thing with software I don't really know how a web server works I don't really know what garbage collection is doing You know like it's just that In the back of your mind you're just kind of like unsure of yourself right And so if over The course of 600 Years there are still people When they have had this relatively abundant Thing that they could read Mass market right 600 years Like it's going to be a very long time Before technology literacy is solved And before everybody can just Feel confident in that they understand How recursion works and things like that right And I do think that these are things that people Like I always look at Star Trek And I realize that it's flawed in the sense that it's You know like Just kind of this vision from the 70s And we got interpolated through the 90s with Next Generation And Voyager and D6 -9 Which is the best one According to Andrew Brown big Trekkie And massive contributor to Free Code Camp He's created like 50 certification preparation Courses on our YouTube But I realize that it's just like Kind of a sci -fi vision of the future But it makes practical sense like A lot of the things in that show I can see that's where we're heading We're heading toward computers where you just talk And you can use declarative speech Instead of imperative speech And the machine is just gives you a lot more affordance In figuring out what needs to be done right And you know if you watch The Expanse Like there's lots of AI But it's not everywhere and they're not like talking AIs and stuff It's just like doing the little things like Recalibrating the turrets on the ship and Stuff like that right And I think that 100 years from now if we want to talk 100 years Let's just use a big round number People are still going to exist We're probably not going to be all walking around in exosuits I will be impressed if we terraform Mars at all By then I just genuinely don't think that there's the political will And the budget and all that stuff And I think that people greatly underestimate how difficult it will be Like colonized space and stuff like that I think realistically we're still going to be here Hopefully we'll have done some stuff to Mitigate like climate change And mitigate like job loss Due to like automation and stuff like that But people are still going to need to learn People are still probably going to need to work and figure out a way to make money I don't believe that UBI is coming to save us Universal basic income Or anything like that I think fundamentally people are going to still need to learn And they're going to still need to go out and do things To provide for their families That has been how it has been throughout civilization Throughout the history of every civilization Whether that is you know The hunter gatherer tribes People have needed to go out and figure out how to keep the calories coming To keep the body going And I think institutions come and fall But we've got these human animals You know 100 ,000 years Of human tribes interacting with one another And you know warring and things like that But I still think that They're going to need to learn I don't think there's going to be a Magic matrix thing where you just like Teach me how to fly a Helicopter and there's a program There's not going to be some magic upload There might be something that dramatically speeds up education But people are still going to need to design Those systems and figure out how to optimally Convey that information So Free Code Camp is still going to be doing that 100 years from now, we're still going to be teaching And that I can be confident of So now that you know what is unlikely to change Then you can focus on what is likely to change In terms of preferences, in terms of people's Ability to like We're probably going to have faster and faster internet connections Probably going to have more and more Photorealistic like 3D environments That we're walking around in We're probably going to have way better Data processing, AI is probably going to Continue to improve, whether it'll be just Step changes like we've seen throughout AI history Or whether it's going to be like a smooth Upward gradient, TBD Right, but I think We can be relatively confident that Human decision making is still going to be involved Human labor is still going to be involved, we're still going to be doing Things and people are going to still need to learn stuff So that is my world view I don't think a nuclear war is going to end Human civilization, I think Humans will just build back and you're not Going to eradicate all 88 billion humans on earth Even if you look at all the extinction level events That have happened throughout human history I think there have been like 6 great extinction Events, like humans would easily survive All of those, like we're way Better prepared to survive Those kinds of things than these giant dinosaurs Or these species that can't even communicate with one another Right, look at all our technology We're not going to die out People who are thinking that the world is going to magically End or that some Technology is just going to come and fundamentally Change everything, like keep waiting I think what is going to happen is it's just going to be Continual incremental progress For probably millions of years And we're at the very beginning of this So that is kind of like my world view And that informs My decision making, so sustainability Let's focus on not dying As an organization, let's focus on Making sure we have plenty of sustainability And that we don't pull A Facebook where we hire tons of people And then have to lay tons of people off heartlessly We've all seen that video call Where Mark Zuckerberg is laying people off And how incredibly awkward And unflattering that whole experience was And how it was probably completely avoidable If they hadn't been all greedy about trying to hoard the talent So just trying to Optimize for the long run That's an Extremely broad sweeping answer I hope that's helpful, but that does inform I'm not planning on retiring Or anything, I don't have a second act I'm not going to be just touring As a jazz bassist or something like that I'm going to be working and running free coke camp And I'm hoping to live to be 100 I'm working out and Eating right and getting plenty of sleep And avoiding dangerous situations So that I can hopefully live

Like

a full natural life What are some dangerous situations you've been avoiding recently? So just like what I teach my kids Like defensive driving Defensive walking Always walk far away from the curb Always assume that the person driving is staring at their phone Or the drunk or something Yeah, I might do defensive driving How about peeing on an electric fence Avoid that one? Don't whiz on the electric fence

You

mentioned your bass Let's finish, let's close With you playing us some bass Now Quincy has what he calls the free coke camp Theme song Which, I don't know if that's what you're going to play for us Or play whatever you like Alright, so I'll just give you some quick context Before I show my very rudimentary playing That any serious bass player will probably Have a good chuckle at I picked this up during the pandemic And I've started to learn other musical instruments as well It's just something I really enjoy doing It's like a completely different area of your brain That gets unlocked And it's so much fun As John Paul Basquiat says Art is how you decorate space Music is how you decorate time So with that Extremely profound quote I will give you the extremely silly Free coke camp theme song here So I'm just going to make sure I've got audio signal That makes sense a lot Like if you break that down Music is how you decorate time, I like that Music is all about timing It's all about,

you

know Quarter time, you know Whatever times, I forget I forget my musical talents But that is so wild to think about that That it decorates time Free coke camp The Free coke camp podcast

Yeah

man Love it man That is a theme song I made for the Free coke camp podcast I wanted to have a cool musical element Like you all have Brickmaster Cylinder We don't have quite the budget for that But

I

was like, okay I'll create a theme song and then I can just play it every episode But it was just too cheesy And so what I've been doing is I've just been covering different pop songs And doing the drums and bass guitar So

if

anybody has any requests Let me know and I can play like 20 or 30 seconds of a pop song At the beginning of an episode of Free coke camp I have a challenge for you I think you might like this But you might not, we'll see What if as part of your betterment To getting better at bass And then Seinfeld -ing it One thing that Seinfeld did With the Seinfeld show Was that that intro

Was

uniquely different every time Because it was uniquely played every single time It was never produced and then just done every time It was the same person who produced it And did the work But they did it fresh Every single episode I wonder if you could do a fresh version of that Every single episode And it just gets better and better and better Or maybe it just gets marginally better As you progress through your talents And it just gets more polished Yeah I mean that is an interesting idea Maybe like check in Periodically and have a different iteration Because like every single week Trying to come up with different variations Also fun fact about the Seinfeld The same exact one The same one Well no I'm doing different songs Each time because frankly Some Duran Duran song Or some Jamiroquai song Is like way more interesting than anything I would write

I

think you are Jamiroquai is pretty good I'm not gonna lie Oh yeah that's true

That

was a pretty awesome very first Musical video for them too as well Virtual Insanity Virtual Insanity?

There's

some good YouTube videos about the making of that video I've seen those yes Very cool it's crazy time They like move the walls So cool anyways I still want to go back to encouraging you What if you just did this every single episode And you re -recorded the same exact thing Every single time Think how good it would get over the next 10 years Well not so much even bettering that But like it's always the same But uniquely different every time Because you can't literally play the same thing The same way every single time It could be very close but it wouldn't be the exact same Which is why not a lot of people know That Seinfeld's intro Is uniquely done every single time Because it sounds the same

Yeah

I mean you'd have to listen really carefully Also fun fact about that They're not actually playing that on the bass they're using the synth Exactly yeah

So

it's a little easier when you're doing the synth On the bass you actually have to learn Learn the new parts and nail the articulation Oh okay well I wasn't comparing literally to you to the bass Of the Seinfeld Oh because it definitely sounds like a bass doesn't it It sounds very accurate especially considering it's like 90's technology But that it was It was a hallmark of the show Obviously it was a signature sound Oh yeah And it was the same every time but different So I would encourage you to do the same every time But different for you Awesome thanks for that idea I'll follow that with the esports team idea I can't do a podcast here without giving ideas away That's just how it works We got good ideas around here Quincy Well speaking of good ideas and good podcasts We are going to go now record an episode of the Free Code Camp podcast With Adam and Jared So to our listener If you want more of us three talking On a different show Check out Free Code Camp podcast At least this week but every week And see what Quincy is doing And you can hear us talk more about ourselves I suppose I'm not sure what we're going to talk about But we'll see Hopefully it's good Bye friends Free Code Camp is such a wild success Bringing immense value to so many people All around the world Congrats once again Quincy and team And here's to the next 10 years Of teaching folks how to code For free As I was saying at the end of the conversation Adam and I hopped out of our Riverside studio And into Quincy's Riverside studio For another I don't know 90 maybe 100 minutes On the Free Code Camp podcast That one isn't out quite yet I believe it'll ship closer to our actual 15th anniversary Which is in mid November When it does I'll link it up in changelog news So you don't miss it You do subscribe to news don't you One reader just this week hit reply And told me it's the best Newsletter for developers out there That felt good Check it out if you're missing out at changelog .com Slash news Thanks again to our partners at fly .io To our beat freak The GOAT, Breakmaster Cylinder And to you for listening We appreciate you hanging out with us Next week on the changelog News on Monday David Hennemeyer Henson talking Rails 8 On Wednesday and on Friday We're in Raleigh for all things open Next week so I don't know What we're shipping on Friday but I'm willing to bet It'll be good maybe even great But definitely good Ok now I'm rambling let's wrap this up Have a great weekend Please do share our show with your friends who might dig it And let's talk again real soon