State of the 'log 2024

Okay, last episode of the year. I'll just drop in that friend's theme.

Something's off. This is State of the Log. We gotta go classic, but where did I put that? There it is. Yes, it's late December once again. That classic changelog theme song is bumpin' and it is time for our seventh annual State of the Log

episode. If this is your first time with us, welcome to the changelog. We are the software world's best weekly news brief, deep technical interviews,

and weekend talk show that feels like hanging out in the hallway of your favorite conference only on repeat. Big thanks to our partners at Fly.io for helping us bring you awesome

developer pods all year long. You know we love Fly, the public cloud built for developers who ship. Give it a try at Fly.io. Okay, let's do it.

What's up nerds? I'm here with Kurt Mackey, co-founder and CEO of Fly. You know we love Fly. So Kurt, I want to talk to you about the magic of the cloud. You have thoughts on this, right? Right. I think it's valuable to understand the magic behind the cloud because you can build better features for users, basically, if you'd understand that. You can do a lot of stuff, particularly now that people are

doing LLM stuff, but you can do a lot of stuff if you get that and can be creative with it.

So when you say clouds aren't magic because you're building a public cloud for developers and you go on to explain exactly how it works, what does that mean to you? In some ways it means these all came from somewhere. Like there was a simpler time before

clouds where we'd get a server at Rack Shack and we'd SSH it or telnet into it even and put files

somewhere and run the web servers ourselves to serve them up to users. Clouds are not magic on top of that. They're just more complicated ways of doing those same things in a way that meets the needs of a lot of people instead of just one. One of the things I think that people miss out on, and a lot of this is actually because AWS and GCP have created such big black box abstractions. Lambda is really black boxy. You can't pick apart Lambda and see how it works from the outside. You have to sort of just use what's there. But the reality is Lambda is not all that complicated. It's just a modern way to launch little VMs and serve some requests from them and let them pause and resume and free up physical compute time. The interesting thing about understanding how clouds work is it lets you build features for your users you never would have expected. Our canonical version of this for us is that when we looked at how we wanted to isolate user code, we decided to just expose this machines concept, which is a much lower level abstraction in Lambda that you could use to build Lambda on top of. What machines are is just these VMs that are designed

to start really fast or designed to stop and then restart really fast or designed to suspend

sort of like your laptop does when it closes and resume really fast when you tell them to. And what we found is that giving people this primitive is actually there's like new apps being built that couldn't be built before, specifically because we went so low level

and made such a minimal abstraction on top of generally like Linux kernel features. A lot of our platform is actually just exposing a nice UX around Linux kernel features, which I think is kind of interesting, but like you still need to understand what they're doing to get the most

use out of them. Very cool. Okay. So experience the magic of fly and get told the secrets of fly because that's what they want you to do. They want to share all the secrets behind the magic of the fly cloud, the cloud for productive developers, the cloud for developers who ship. Learn more

and get started for free at fly.io. Again, fly.io. All right, man, here we are state of the log.

Can you believe it? I can't believe it. You know, I listened to last year's in prep for this one. You did? Yeah, I went to sleep to that last night. You might be more prepared than I am then because I did not. I wouldn't call that prepared really. I at first glance as a consumer of podcasts, I looked at the chapter list and it was like voicemail, reaction of voicemail, voicemail, reaction of voicemail. Right. The chapters weren't really indicative of the content. That was okay. So it was a different vibe, but then also audibly a very different vibe. We didn't list different last year, you know, and we're going to carry it through this year too. So right. We appreciate that. We did some things different. We did other things the same listener voicemails, reactions to listener voicemails. That's been a thing for a few years now. And then picking our favorites as we've always done that

only we're going to hold off our favorites to the end. Now I'm just going to foreshadow a little bit. I'm going to say this. I think you're gonna like this. Okay. I'm going to do something unprecedented. Oh gosh. When we get to our picks. Okay. You're going to have a list, an actual list that's longer than mine. This has never happened before and it may never happen again. Okay. So there's a little bit of a teaser. One thing I thought would be cool. I'm not sure I like that, honestly, a little mini game because our listeners are all going to pick their favorite episodes on their voicemails. And the question, and of course you have some prepared. How many did you pick? Just give me a number. What'd you bring a favorite episodes? Yeah. 15. Okay. 15. I'm joking

because last year I said 11 and I actually saw it because I just listened back. I laughed at myself because you said, how many do you have? And I was like, dramatic pause, right? 11. And it was a lot, you know, 11 is a lot. So I was like, I got to Trump that number 15. So 15. All right. So in honesty, I have five favorites for honorable mentions. And then I picked my favorite titles. I have of that list, six best titles. So here's the mini game. How many of our favorites are going to cross over with listener favorites? Meaning if we were to scratch out our favorites, each time they were mentioned by somebody else first, how many do you think we'll have at the end? How many unique to you and, or me do your own? I'll do my own. I have five favorites and

four honorable mentions. This, this number that we choose is a secret too. We're going to reveal it later. No, we're going to reveal it right now. It's a mini game. We're going to guess,

and then we'll see if we're right. Okay. I will say all of them, all of them. So you have how

many I'm going a hundred percent, a hundred percent crossover or a hundred percent unique

truth be told, I'm still making my list. Okay. Truth be told, I'm still making my list. So you're not repaired at all. Okay. So we can't play this game because your list changes throughout the show. Is that what's happening? That's true. I can cheat. Okay. I can cheat it. You know, the problem is there's just so many good ones. That's so I started making a list and I was like, okay, that was a good one. Okay. That was a good one. Okay. That was a good one. Right. And I just

had a really hard time making an actual list this year because like there's a lot of good stuff.

All right. Well, the mini game canceled because your list changes throughout the show. Fair enough. There were a lot. And in fact, I did a SQL query. I think we have 101 episodes to pick from between interviews and friends. Yes. So, I mean, it's tough to pick five out of 101 or even 15, but let's get into it. Shall we? Let's do it. All right. Listener voicemails. Thank you so much to our listeners. We have the coolest community, even BMC, just this morning was saying, let me see if I can quote BMC. Break massive cylinder. I was thanking BMC for making all these remixes and telling them it makes this episode extra special for us and our listeners. And BMC said, I really like it. You got a whole community thing

going on, which is kind of how BMC types. And that's true. We have a cool community thing

going on and we appreciate that. It makes not just this episode awesome, but really what we do awesome. So thank you to everybody who called in. We have 12 voicemails, same as last year. And we have one person who sent theirs in at the last minute. And if you listen to last year's, you already know who that person is. We'll save them to the end because they deserve it. So let's get straight into it. Our first caller in is AJ Kerrigan. Ooh. Hi Adam. Hi Jared. It's some other rando named AJ Kerrigan. There was a bit of a theme to some of my favorite episodes this year. They talked about taking control of your own workspace, your tools, your environment, and thinking through what's important to you. And that could be starting at the hardware level, the lowest level, the interview with Kyle from iFixit or with

Erez from ZSA about customizable ergonomic keyboards. That's building a solid base.

And then moving up the stack to the OS, the Linux Discharge episode with George Castro on ShipIt was another fantastic one. And what a lot of my favorite episodes this year had was some great Zulip chat. Moving to Zulip, the episode about Zulip, and then also seeing the Changela community move to Zulip was a great experience. As a listener, it's definitely much easier to keep

track of chats now. And I love it, seeing the engagement from the Zulip team, hearing that hard P from Adam that now I've started doing, Zulip. So thanks for another great year. I got a remix last year, so please do not bother including me this year. I just wanted to get some voice out to you all and say, well done. I appreciate what you're doing. I like being a Changela subscriber, and I don't see that changing. And I'll see you all in Zulip going forward. Thanks. Zulip. Good job, AJ. I like that. Oh, man. Zulip for the win. Zulip for the win. For the win. Remix is for the win. So we appreciate you saying don't remix this, but you know we don't take orders around here, AJ, and we do what we want. It's like saying when you edit that out, you're going to leave it in. Yeah, exactly. It's like Matt Ryer saying edit that out. You're getting a remix. Gosh darn it. But yeah. Okay. So you have a moving list of episodes, but I'm guessing I fix it. We have a right to repair. That had to be on your list, right, Adam? It was. Actually, both of those were.

Open source thread chat, team chat was on my list. Yeah. So, so far 100% of your of AJ's picks are at least your pick. I also had one of those. So we may not have anything left at the end.

And if you know the reference, Adam, some other rando, AJ was referencing our secondary theme song, our alt theme song, which is called Your Favorite Ever Show. Yes. And BMC took that

reference and ran with it. Here is AJ Kerrigan's BMC remix. Finally, it's time for Change Logging Friends with Adam and Jay. I don't like that theme and I don't see that changing. So I gotta fix it. Starting at the lowest level. That's building a solid base. Adam and Jay did some other rando. Another fantastic remix by AJ Kerrigan. So dope. Oh, and the, and the late, is that a vuvuzela? The late siren. Oh, you know, having heard that remix, I have to say that I have

purposefully behind the scenes not listened to any of these so that I can have in the moment,

I know you have, and I thank you for doing all the prep of this, you know, all that behind the scenes love, care, attention, so that I don't have to burst the bubble for myself. I can live in the moment in this podcast. So I appreciate that. That's right. You sit back, relax and enjoy. Yes. As Breakmaster Saloner and I toiled over these, although I did very little work, just criticism as we went and handing off of files and stuff like that. You had to create a type form. You had to promote it here and there. You had to talk to people and zulip. Oh, that's true. You know, that's so much extra work involved. I mean, it is work though. It's, it's the nurturing process of the things. Yes. All right. Thanks, AJ. That is awesome. Next listener, somebody new, lots of familiar voices and names, but we have a new listener here calling in, Aaron, now you mentioned the type form. I do ask for pronunciation help. And this fellow's name is, I believe air, no, but his last name is V O U T I L A I N E N. Vootilinan, Voudelainian. I don't know. I don't know how to say it. And under the pronunciation help, he wrote E as in enter, but I'm fine with any pronunciation. So he gave us help on the first name, Airno. Well, come on, man. I can't pronounce Voudelainian. Let's hear from Airno. Dear Adam and Jared, greetings from all the way from Finland, the land of the happiest people on

planet, as you might know, just to clearly meet up front. I think the reason for our happiness is just the fact that everyone must be listening to the change log, obviously, or maybe it's just me and I'm weird, but honestly and sincerely, I love what you do. I've been listening for a few years already. So I decided it's about time to give you a personal hello and some cheers. And what was the kicker for me to reach out was the very first episode of a year where you dropped in the new

beats. Honestly, I was shocked and I almost had to cry. They were so good, as Adam likes to put it. So gold. So back then in January, I also decided to see if the famous residency bias is a thing what Jared wondered on the last state of the log. And my conclusion for the year is that if it is

residency bias, I'm also susceptible to it. Or you by chance happen to put out the best content towards the end of the year. So who knows. So a few highlights for me this year in addition

to the beats were the reappearance of Cameron Say and Change Log on Friends episode 36. By the way, I love the Change Log on Friends format. Please keep them coming. Then we got Matt Reyer, Seeing It If You Know It, a modern classic. Almost choked on my coffee while listening to that for the first time. And finally, two tickets for the departure. Change Log interviews 6.18. So thanks to you, I'm now a happy departure mono user on my terminal and I'm loving it. And I could of course include all the Kaizen episodes, the Neverending TypeScript armwrestles between Jared and Nick,

all of Adam's home-lebing goodness, the Dan-tans and the... well you get the point. So thank you so much for what you do. You have indeed befriended me and I'm here to stay. Happy holiday season to

you all and all the success on those type dreams for 2025. Thank you, Erno. That's a... wow. Dan-tan, that's like a deep cut now. I was gonna say that, my gosh. I was being quiet. I was gonna come in right away and just say there was so many deep cuts there. Yeah. You know, really there were. From Dan-tan to the home lab stuff to just all the details, man. That's cool. And some good picks as well. Cameron Say's return to the pod. So many good picks. Two tickets for departure. We have a departure mono convert. I'm not using mono in my terminal. I tried it and I've determined... maybe I shared this already. I determined that I don't like pixel fonts at the terminal level. I like it in the editor more, but for something about the terminal, it just looks a little too pixelated. So I'm over here on JetBrains mono at this point, but that conversation actually got me to re-evaluate my mono space font of choices and encodingfont.com, which I put in news and we were all playing with it. A lot of people chatting in Zulip. We're playing with that website. Very cool. It's like a... not a hot or not, but what's the...

Hot or not. Like a royal rumble of fonts, you know, where you put two fonts against each other and then it swaps in another one and you just keep picking, picking. The Pesci challenge, so to speak. And you can determine without knowing the names of the fonts and the stories, which one you actually like the best. And that one landed me on JetBrains mono. But I don't think... it's not comprehensive. Like departure mono is not on there, for instance, or at least it didn't come up in mine. Anyways, should we hear Aaron O's remix? I would like to. It's just the fact that everyone was listening to the new beats, obviously. They were so good. So good. Sing it if you know it. It almost sounds like you're saying Ferlinda. Ferlin, Ferlin, Ferlin, Ferlinda. That could be like a new Finland anthem, you know, like maybe if they need a new national anthem, we could submit that one, perhaps. I think a theme we'll hit this year with the remixes, at least, that I know that you don't know because I've been listening to them as we go. I think BMC has some new toys. You think so? Yes. Like AI? Like some... there's more

noises that don't come from the words of our actual listeners this year. I think BMC is playing... like the Finlanda, like that was not Aaron O. Or was it? You know, it might be actually. I don't think so. I mean, you can really push the voice. Yeah. Maybe just taking Aaron O's voice and then just like really stretching it and then harmonics, timing. Yeah. Maybe, maybe, maybe. It's possible. We'll have to see. We'll have to get Breakmaster Cylinder on the pod in the new year. That's easy. And discuss some stuff because that's what we did last year. Well, we'll probably have a new album next year. So there's breaking news. We have been working on our fourth... you call it a studio album when the studio is Breakmaster Cylinder's studio by himself. I don't know. It's a new studio album. Our fourth Changelog Beats and it'll be coming out next year. So teaser. And we'll certainly

get BMC on after that one drops, right? All right, listener voicemail number three. This is Don

McKinnon. Hey Jared, Adam and everyone at Changelog. My favorite episode of 2024 was the Changelog and Friends episode from Chef to System Initiative. I've been following Adam Jacob on social media for a while and he's always a great guest. So it was interesting to hear more about his career journey that led him to where he is now with his new company. And I did have to go back and watch any given Sunday after hearing that episode. I'd never seen it before. I also got a kick out of the Rails is Having a Moment Again episode. A lot of times I disagree with DHH, but regardless, he is always entertaining to listen to. Thank you for all the work you guys do on the podcast. It's one of my favorites. See, these are all on my list, Jared. Okay, so you're bad. So you are. Maybe you're right 100%. We can just skip your section all together at the end. Yeah, maybe we could. I'd just be like, just listen to the show. That kind of thing. But that was a good show. Like, I really wanted to do that show for a very long time. The Adam Jacob show. Yes, yes, yes. Every time we had Adam on the podcast, I found myself biting my tongue to go into those depths, you know? Yeah. Because it wasn't the point of the show. But I had curiosities. And I figured, well, I'll just be patient because eventually we'll get that time. I guess the only sad thing is that it ended up on Changelog and Friends and was more of an interview. So I kind of broke the system. Yeah, you even called it a different kind of Friends episode at the opener. I'm like,

the kind of a Friends episode that's actually an interview? Well, you know, sometimes you got to blur your lines, you know? You have to. And I think that what I've learned from talking to listeners over the years is that their lines are very blurred for them, so much so that they don't know the difference half the time. So it's probably more on us, although Don sure noticed where it landed. I liked that episode a lot, too. Obviously, I wasn't there. So I got to listen to it as a listener would. And I just loved some of the stories that came out, especially around the high school dropout move. You know, the loophole and some of the stuff early on in his career were fascinating to me. So good choice. And of course,

DHH always delivers. And so that was a good episode as well. I don't want to call this out necessarily to try to embarrass Adam. But did you, do you recall the part in the show where he almost cried? No, it was the first time I ever interview history or career, whatever you want to call it, where I've actually gotten somebody. I don't even want to say it like that. It's not cool, right? You're not getting them to it like you're trying. Yeah, I'm not trying to do that. It's just, I don't necessarily want to make him cry. Let's just say, but I do want to hear the good stuff. And he was sharing this really raw, emotional part of the chef history when he had to go out and in quotes or a version of quotes, paraphrase, command the troops, get them excited. And he just shared how he went back afterwards into his office and wept. And in the moment of

sharing that story with me, he's like, I'm, I'm like getting emotional. He says, you know, and I'm there visually, which is why I'm desperately wanting this video version of our

show. Cause there's, there's things you miss. Sure. And as a listener of that show, you only hear the audio. As a person who's there in the moment, we had to take a quick pause because he was, he was getting, he's getting emotional. And the reason why I share that isn't, it's not to expose that necessarily, but to point it out because I got to see that. And I felt like that was a raw, real moment with Adam in a conversation that was quite lengthy. It was like two and a half hours, I think real time, maybe two-ish hours, you know, produced. And that's why I like doing podcasting because you get that truly real, truly authentic, truly deep, when you can go there kind of conversation that can only really happen in a podcast like that. You are the Barbara Walters of our...Babwa Walters. You're like my impersonation. That was good. Babwa Walters. All right, Don BMC, hook them up. My favorite episode was from Chef to System Initiative. I've been following Adam Jacob on social media for a while. I've been also following Adam Jacob to work and I got kicked out of his company. So it was interesting to hear more about his career journey that led him to kick me out of

his company. And I disagree with him, but regardless, he's always entertaining and he's

always kicking me out. The goodness that Breakmaster's Owner brings is just so good, right?

I love the little, is that like a cop cherry sound? Like the cops are there, like whoo.

You know, that's what I figured when he gets kicked out of his company, like he calls the police on him, you know? Oh yeah, it's, I don't think it's that. I think it's that whistle when you pull it out, it elongates the sound and when you push it in, it might be the same thing that we're talking about, but. Right, right, right. I wasn't saying it's actually that sound. I was saying like that's what it's reminiscent of. I'm wondering if BMC was trying to imply that Don McKinnon actually had to be arrested at System Initiative headquarters. It's quite possible, honestly. That'll make you cry. All right. It's quite possible. Moving on to long time listener, I believe new Changelog++ member, if this is indeed the same, Andrew O'Brien. Hey Jared and Adam, thanks for another year of great pod. Big thanks to Adam for giving me the push I needed to finally rewatch and finish Silicon Valley. Also, an apology. I'm sorry

for ruining the whole Antarctic data center joke in one of your Fly.io ads. I asked follow-up questions and then it went away, so I feel responsible. Anyway, here's my message to anyone listening who has a professional development stipend to spend before year end.

Everyone knows that Changelog++ is better, but what my theory presupposes is that it's a membership that gets you more educational material, so work should pay for it. Fill out that reimbursement form and get that warm, fuzzy feeling for supporting independent tech media. Thanks again, guys. Now, there has to be an inside story on this Antarctic code vault, so do you know Andrew and you were interviewing him for something, or? No, this is disconnected. Okay. So for a bit there on the Fly home page, it said, I can't recall how many continents are. Is there seven continents? I always forget. I'm too old to remember this stuff. There are seven continents, aren't there? Right, I believe there's seven, and they mention Antarctica coming soon. Right. I thought as a joke, and I started saying that as part of the, you know, big thanks to our friends at Fly and partners of Fly. All right. Antarctica coming soon, you know, and I think that's what he's referencing because, and I didn't take it away from that because he said something in Slack. I think it was Slack at the time. Oh, okay, so he brought up in Slack and ruined a joke. Yeah, but he did ask if, I think it was him, and I, you know, Slack is a challenge because like, it's hard to find the right people, I suppose, over the years, but I think Zillip's a bit easier to like, catch with people because you see the thread longer that doesn't go away. It's not really ephemeral. So I don't really recall the conversation in Slack necessarily, but I do recall the conversation around speculation of if it truly was going to be in Antarctica coming soon. We speculated whether or not there was, you know, servers down there because there's bases down there, et cetera. If there truly is a down there, Flat Earthers. So that's what it was. Oh, I thought you were going to keep talking. You just ended it. You just mic dropped on the Flat Earthers. I dropped it on the Flat Earthers, man. Yeah. So a couple of things. First of all, great idea. Thanks for promoting, Andrew, the concept of having your employer pay for your ChangeLog++ membership. I mean, come on, this is continuing education at its core, is it not? I mean, I think that's awesome. Do more of it. Great idea. Everybody who thinks of it thinks, why not? If you haven't thought of it, hopefully now you've thought of it, it's a win-win-win. I will shout out to Andrew for what I think is a Royal Tenenbaums deep cut in the middle of one of the sentences. He says, my theory presupposes, which to me sounded very much like Owen Wilson on Royal Tenenbaums talking about custard dying. I'm going from memory. It's like, everybody knows that custard died at the Battle of Little Bighorn, something like that. But what my book presupposes is maybe he didn't, something like that. Well, everyone knows custard died at Little Bighorn, but this book presupposes is maybe he didn't. So Andrew, if that's indeed your reference, reference acknowledged, friend, and you have a Royal Tenenbaums fan here. If not, then I just completely run into something that didn't exist.

And either way, go check out Royal Tenenbaums. Good movie. I've never watched that movie. I have to confess. Do you like Wes Anderson? Maybe. What kind of movies has he directed? Royal Tenenbaums. Okay. That's a good one. Well, I guess we'll find out. Bottle Rocket. Fantastic Mr. Fox.

The Life Aquatic with Steve Sizzou. This is all from memory? Yeah, I'm a fan. I'm a Wes Anderson fan. Wow. I'm proud of you. You're welcome. I thought you quickly LLM'd yourself or something. No, I'm just going from memory. Wes Anderson. He has a very specific style, a very specific taste and all the same characters like Owen Wilson, Luke Wilson, Bill Murray, Angelica Houston, like this, these people, Jason Schwartzman, he has all the same actors in his George Clooney, in his movies all the time. And I just watched Fantastic Mr. Fox with my family a few weeks back and that movie completely holds up. I just utterly enjoyed it. I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to circle back. So I resisted the Royal Tenenbaums. I thought it looked maybe strange. Also, 2001 wasn't the year I was watching a lot of movies. It is strange. It takes a specific taste. I think you either love Wes Anderson movies or you hate them because they're shot in a specific way. In fact, Adam Lissagore, here's another foreshadow, and I were talking about how I felt like his commercials, like a lot of the sandwich films were borrowing prompts, not prompts, but homages to Wes Anderson. He's like, yeah, totally. Wow. He shoots in a very, he has his choreography. It's amazing, but it's also like very opinionated and specific. And so if you don't like that style and the humor is very subdued and somewhat intellectual. And so it's not like a Tommy boy, you know, it's like, it gets funnier the more you think about it when the first time you hear it, like, this is ridiculous. Like it's just so stupid. So I'm not saying that you'll necessarily love Royal Tenenbaums, but if you watch it,

it's well-made. So you at least appreciate the craft. And if you enjoy it, there's a whole bunch of movies waiting for you. Just like it or versions of it. I do recall the Grand Budapest Hotel being promoted. Yeah. Was that a good one? That's a good one. It's not my favorite. I think Tenenbaums is a more approachable movie to start with. Fantastic Mr. Fox, because it is animated. Great music, by the way. It's very approachable. Kid-friendly? Yes. We watched it with our whole family. There are a few things that are like adult things, but they just fly right over the kid's head. It's not like the whole movies like that, but there are moments where you're like, hmm, this is kind of mature, but the kids just don't notice it. This isn't the best place to go for this, but it's one of the places I go to it. But if I want to know if I can trust this for my kid, I do use IMDB's section where it talks about parental spots. As you scroll the profile page for a movie title, there's a section that talks about the different things that appear in the movie, specifically for parents to, you know, gauge whether they should or should not. Like nudity, violence, et cetera. Yeah. There's also like specific websites that are watching one that I don't know if it's good anymore, but used to be good. It was called Kids in Mind. And they actually watch and review movies with Kids in Mind. And they will tell you almost to an extreme level where they're like every single thing that happens that might be something you might want to know about prior to the kids watching it. And so in the past, I have used that. I know there's other ones. Do you recall the, a female in the movie being called the town tart in her youth? Yeah. Okay. They highlighted that as sex immunity. Right. Which is cool. It's called the parental guide. She's the town tart. She's the town tart. That goes right over their head. Doesn't it? They're like, what's a tart? Why is it? Why would the

town have a tart like pop tarts? What are they talking about? Yeah, sure. Pop tarts are sweet. All right. So anyways, we could have just created an entire tangent around something Andrew wasn't referring to, but if you were indeed referring to a quote from Royal Tenenbaums, reference acknowledged. All right. Here is Andrew's Breakmaster Cylinder remix. Hey Jared and Adam. Thanks for another year ruining Silicon Valley. Big thanks to Adam for giving me the push I needed to also ruin Silicon Valley. Oh my gosh. Anyway, here's my message to everyone listening. Silicon Valley. Also an apology. I'm sorry for my message to everyone listening. I feel responsible. And you should. So many, so many dings. Well, I told BMC, you literally can't have enough dings. Literally cannot. So yeah, I mean, in a sense, maybe we have ruined Silicon Valley, but also maybe in a sense, we brought it back. Yeah. I think we've, we've been responsible for a lot of HBO subscriptions. I think so. We should get an HBO max affiliate code or something. We really should. Like every time you stream that there should be a royalty, like an Adam and Jared royalty. I would just take a, a 4k version of the entire series. You don't have that? They didn't shoot in 4k or? Well, if you recall, Christina Warren, if you recall, she and I, or at least she was, and we were both lamenting, at least I was lamenting this. The studios purposefully withhold the higher resolution versions on disc. They make you subscribe to the service

to get the higher resolution. So there's lots of Seinfeld, even I believe in like DVD quality, like, come on for real. Yes. Not even Blu-ray quality DVD quality. You're about to get rage

monster out. Let's not do this. I have to tone it down. Hold still. Yes. There's supposed to be a happy time, you know, stay at the lock. It is supposed to be happy time, but I don't believe that we've break massive cylinder. We did not ruin Silicon Valley. Thank you for the dings. No, Andrew O'Brien ruined it. He's feels responsible. Did he actually say that in his actual voicemail though? I don't think he did. Did he? No, he said that you caused him to go watch Silicon Valley. Right. And then BMC remixed his words. That's right. Yeah. That's what I mean. That's what you sign up for around here. It's a remix, you know, we're going to hijack what you say and make you see something different. I mean, pretty much Don McKinnon just told a story about how he got arrested at system initiative headquarters, you know, and he doesn't agree with Adam. I don't think that really happened. No, I don't believe that happened at all. Let's, let's hope not. We'll have to confirm Silicon Valley. Well, friends, this is the last change

you have to get the eight sleep pod for ultra in your hands in your bedroom before Christmas, go to eight sleep.com slash changelog and use the code change like you need to to get $350 off your very own pod for ultra. I've never had better sleep. I love this thing. I sleep on it every single night. My wife and I, we absolutely love what it does for our sleep. So what exactly is the pod? Imagine a high tech mattress cover that you can easily add to any bed. This isn't just

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sleep lab. The pod uses precision temperature control to regulate your body's sleep cycles. It can cool you down to a chilly 55 degrees Fahrenheit or warm you up to 110 Fahrenheit. And this is separately for each side of the bed. This means that you and your partner can each have your own ideal sleep temperature going on. And the really, really cool part is the pod uses AI and machine learning to learn how you sleep to learn your sleep patterns over time. And it uses

this data to automatically adjust the temperature of your bed throughout the night to fine tune how

you sleep, to give you more REM sleep, to give you deeper sleep. And that's the part I love most. And all this functionality is accessible through their awesome mobile app. You get detailed sleep analytics, trends over time, and even a daily sleep fitness score. Again, go to 8sleep.com slash changelog. Use our code changelog. Get $350 off your very own pod for ultra. Do it now. Sleep buff for Christmas. Again, 8sleep.com slash changelog. And also by our friends over at Wix, I've got just 30 seconds to tell you about Wix Studio, the web platform for freelancers, agencies, and enterprises. So here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or less on Studio. Number one, integrate, extend, and write custom scripts in a VS code based IDE to leverage zero setup dev, test, and production environments. Three, ship faster with an AI code assistant. And four, work with Wix headless APIs on any tech stack. Wix Studio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients. Well, my time is up, but the list keeps going on. Step into Wix Studio and see for yourself. Go to wix.com slash studio. Once again, wix.com slash studio. All right, next up an old voice, Jarvis Yang. I think Jarvis calls in every year and gives us shout outs, but also gives other people shout outs. And this is no different here.

Jarvis is going to shout out us as well as somebody else. Here he is. Nhajong changelog. That's hello in Hmong. As the year comes to a close, I wanted to give a big shout out to both the Ship It podcast and Prime Digital Academy. When I started diving into DevOps, Ship It became my go-to resource. Gerhard, Adam, and Gerald, you've all taught me so much and had a huge impact on my journey. Thank you for everything. I also want to recognize Prime Digital Academy, which after 10 incredible years is closing its doors. Prime was where my second career in software development began and it helped me through some of the toughest times in my life. Gave me an amazing supportive community and lifelong connections. A special shout out to my at bash cohort. Ooh, ha ha. And of course, to Mary and Christy, thank you for being such

inspiring mentors. It's bittersweet to say goodbye to both Prime and the Ship It podcast, but the impact you've made will stay with me and so many others. Thank you for being such

a big part of my journey. There's an obvious thing here, right? I mean, are you going to say that?

Go ahead. What is Prime Digital Academy?

First time hearing about this. Did I miss something? No, this was a bootcamp that Jarvis went to. And just like last year, Jarvis shouted out,

I think it was like Minnesota gophers or something. Like he likes to give shout outs. And so he gives Ship It a shout out and then he gives Prime Digital Academy, which is a software engineering bootcamp that helped Jarvis launch his career. And it's closing down after 10 years. And so there's some alignment there with Ship It being retired now. I see. There. There's your connection. Oh, okay. That makes more sense. I was like, gosh. I thought we were getting credit where credit was not due or conflation. I was like, what is going on here? I'm down. I'm on the webpage, primeacademy.io, by the way. They're in the mix of the IOs that may get repurposed. We'll see.

And I'm on the about page and I'm like, meet our team. I'm like, I don't know any of these people. Where is the connection? Please help me. So anyways, that's it. So Jarvis then sent me this note in addition to the audio submission. Glad to hear that Ship It is getting its spinoff and looking forward to more of the dynamic duo,

Justin and Autumn. So yes, Ship It will have a continuity, will have a continuation as a different pod called FAFO, fork around and find out. And then he says for context,

oohaha, which you heard him say oohaha, was his cohorts call out on campus. So they would say

that to each other. And so he's giving him a call out. Okay. All right. Can I share a call out that I used to do back in the day? Ruha? No, this is going to be, this can be epic. Okay. I like it. This can be epic. This should be clip. V I C T O R. Victor, V I C T O R. Victor, you mess with the best. You down like the rest. Victor what? Victor what? Wow. That's not my best rendition, but it's a pretty good one. Say more. The context. I was in the military, of course, and the military has an alphabet, A through Z, just like anybody else, but V is Victor. So when you do the phonetic alphabet, at least the military version of it. Alpha, Bravo. Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, all the things, you know, Foxtrot, all through V, which is Victor. And so I was in Victor company. And so every company is charged with creating their own thing to kind of get the hype, kind of like this, uh, ooh, ha ha thing, except for that one shorter. Right. Yeah. And so, uh, it was Victor company, V I C T O R. Victor. Love it. Yeah. You should send that to your old Victor company colleagues. What do you call them? Colleagues, uh, troops, I guess, soldiers. Yeah. Your fellow

soldiers. Yeah. Fellow soldiers. But the, uh, you mess with the best. You down like the rest.

Victor. What? Victor. What is the clincher? Love it. All right. Jarvis remixed. Ooh, ha ha. There you go. I don't know about you, but I've got my scalp massager out

and I'm thoroughly, just thoroughly, just relaxed. I was going to say it. It reminds me of like, you're about to get hypnotized and they're like, you are floating off into sleep. Yes. There are no problems in your life. You are weightless as you float on a cloud. Yeah. Well, you know, even BMC has a softer side. Yeah. I dig it. Jarvis. Yeah. I dig it. All right. We move on word and upward. Here's Brett Cannon. Hi, Adam and Jared. Congratulations again. Another

banger of a year for the change log for my highlights of 2024, the Kennedy breakdown

to themes. Uh, probably the first thing was hardware episode 6 0 8 for interviews with

building customizable ergonomic keyboards with evidence Zuckerman of ZSA. I thought that was really cool to hear their ethos and approach to making keyboards that last and can last for a long time. Interviews episode number 5 92, uh, from Sun to Oxide with Brian Candrell was great just for the stories alone. Also with what Oxide is trying to do with hardware. And then finally for hardware was, uh, interviews, episode number 5 82. We have a retro repair with Kaya Wains. I also say that's the most expensive episode for me personally, cause it led to me

buying and I fix it a repair kit and it has actually been very helpful. Uh, so thank you Adam for that recommendation. The next theme is languages. Uh, no shock coming from me. Interviews episode number 6 11 free thread of Python with my friends, Pablo and Lukasz from the core.py

podcast was obviously a lot of fun to hear someone else interview them for a change. Uh, and then also change login threads. Episode number 28 gradually taping elixir was kind of cool to hear Jose talk about how elixir is trying to bring in typing, uh, after having seen how Python tried to pull it off. Uh, the third thing was operating systems actually in ship it episode number one 22 with Linux distros with Jorge Castro. It was kind of cool to hear how universal blues trying to use containers to make operating systems a bit easier to work with, uh, from a Linux perspective. And then it was great to hear a list talk previously finally from change login reviews. Number five 74 with Alan Jude because previously I don't think it's enough play in the world. Theme number four was apps with change log and friends. Episode 35 with Obama pros was cool to hear Shannon Parker, Silbert talk about how they make open pro work as a business. And also personally it was kind of a fun episode because it was the first time I was out with extended walk with my son by myself and trying to keep him calm with mom, not around. And then there was also why we need lady bird, uh, change all interviews. Number six zero four and with entries cleaning Chris Wentz Roth and how trying to make a browser is extremely hard. And then finally the fifth, uh, theme is people. And, uh, that was, uh, from change log interviews. So number five nine five with Kelsey Hightower talking retired, but not tired and just hearing Kelsey seemingly having a great time, uh, no longer be constrained by, uh, the corporate world and getting to do what he truly wants to do. Once again, congrats again for a wonderful 2024 and look forward to 2025. I'm thinking Brett just knocked out the rest of your list. Well, I was, I was, uh, pumping my fist on several of them, but I have to say that I'm not betting a thousand now. It's a shame. I, there was two or several that were not on my list and I'm sad. Well, he did pick 10 episodes. So, I mean, he's, he's rivaling you in quantity. Yes, true. Can we talk about BSD or at least free BSD? Can we, or did we, or can we briefly? Sure. So I got excited about that afterwards and I share Brett's excitement too, but then I got sad because it seems like free

BSD is just not getting the love because it's not the way I suppose Linux is. And there's the lack

of support for certain things and it's just hard. It's just hard to use. And so I think it gets, it has such good pure intentions, but it doesn't get the same love that Linux proper gets. Gets the same love in what way? What do you mean love? Well, obviously Linux is, you know, one over it is what I mean by that. But I think corporate love, I think developer love,

you know, really investment, investment potentially. But I believe, I can't recall

in this moment, I'll have to go back in my links and find it, but I believe earlier this year there was talking, there was talk about how free BSD wasn't supporting certain things and they were falling by the wayside and essentially like, it seemed to me like if I was reading the

tea leaves, like pay less attention to it because it's just eventually going to always be this

super minority. It's a niche. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you really got to want to feel the pain, I suppose. Right. Or have already overcome the pain. That's why the reputation, and I brought that up, I think on that episode, is that free BS at BSD people are generally more expert because they have

to be, and it's harder to use than Linux. Not necessarily because it's more complicated or

wrong or anything, but just different and a smaller community. So less helps, less investment,

less support, et cetera. So sorry to hear that, but there's certainly people who love and use it and build cool things with it. That being said, you should check it out. I'm actually like on

hackaday.com on a post from this year. And at the very end, just scanning it, it says, free BSD is here to stay. So don't take it from me. I am not steeped in all the things. I'm not agreeing. You just tried it. You hit some bumps. Yeah. You saw some people saying it was not going to be supportive for whatever you're up to. And it's like. Precisely. It's kind of just the

harder path in some cases than the straight, not the straight and narrow, than the mainstream path.

I mean, that being said, I did spin up ZFS. I did get a file server running. I did do all the things I intended to do. Do you remember where you got stuck? I didn't get stuck. I didn't actually have any issues with it personally, but it was just this tension of what free BSD was supporting and what it wasn't supporting and how it was being supported. And then you got TrueNAS who moved away from free BSD to basically a Debian version and they're deprecating. They're sort of maintaining the free BSD flavor, but TrueNAS scale is the future of TrueNAS. Not that there are the

the litmus test of free BSD dying or not. It's just like, well, if the people making these file

system and a server can't build their future on free BSD, then who can? Where does it really fit? And so that's what was making me think, well, maybe it's just not worth my... It's not that they can, it's that they chose a different way. Sure. Yeah. Fair enough. I had no problem with it. I loved it. It was actually kind of fun, except it was limiting, you know, to me at some point. Now,

do you recall Brett's voicemail last year? You probably just listened to it last night while you're going to sleep. Oh yeah. Andrea, my wife, Andrea. All right, good. All right, here we go. Here's Brett's remix from this year. Hi, Adam and Jiren. Congratulations again, another banger of a year for Changelog. For my highlights of 2024, break down the themes. Probably the first thing was hardware. I'll also say I really enjoyed episode 558 with my wife, Andrea.

Andrea. Andrea. Gotta give a shout out to my wife, Andrea.

Oh man. So good. Where else would you get that kind of goodness in life? I'm telling you. I mean, you put your spoon in to that cup and you're coming out with goodness, okay? Yum, yum, yum. Okay, so I'm digging what Breakmaster's doing on the voices stuff. That's pretty cool. I want more of that in our life. Right. I feel like these are proving grounds for future coolness. I was also thinking not this voicemail remix, but the one prior. It'd be kind of cool to also release a companion podcast that's just the voicemails as Changelog. Just like we did with the album. I don't know if that would fit or not, but I'm just thinking like as a condensed version, just listen to them all on continuity. It's like, there you go. Boom. Yeah, especially if we can't sleep at night, you and I could just listen to people call us and say nice things about us. I feel bad about my life. Let me listen to this show. They love us. People like us. They really like us. That was a good one, Brett. I liked that one a lot. Brett, thanks for, thanks for liking so many of our episodes. I mean, I can give it a hard time because you picked 10. At least they were from this year. That's also a callback. And the fact that you like so many of our shows is kind of amazing. Isn't it? I mean, I appreciate that. One in particular, if you don't mind. Go ahead. Pick one. Get into it. Changelog interviews. Episode 592. From sun to oxide. Epic. I thought he would pee himself during the podcast. You thought Brian Cantrell was going to pee himself. I thought Brian would, well, he drank like three Diet Cokes or something like that. Like during the podcast. When you say Epic, you mean it literally in terms of length. Oh yeah, it was long. I think it was as long as I could maybe have ever gone. Probably our longest episode. I think so. Honestly. That wasn't a, sometimes when we do anthologies, they get long, but single conversation. Yeah. Let me just for. Oh, I can sort by duration pretty easily. I do have a. 153 minutes. That's two hours, 33 minutes. I do happen to have our database available to me. Okay. And I can. Sort by length. Query it for, exactly. We have audio duration as a field. And I will say order by audio duration. Okay. So in terms of audio duration, if we take out the anthologies. Which was Adam's brilliant idea. I hadn't thought of it and limit it to this year. The longest episode was from sun to oxide with Brian Cantrell. So yes, the longest episode of the year, except for Microsoft is all in on AI part two, which had three interviews on it. Now that's this year. Should I pull out this year and just see of all time, let's see of all time now. Boom. 708 rows. This is from interviews and friends all time. And the longest episode of all time is from sun to oxide with

Brian Cantrell. So there you go. Confirmed. Yeah. I mean, I thought he was going to burst. And the second longest that's not an anthology is from chef to system initiative,

which we already covered. So right. These deep dives expect more like this, I think next year, Adam going deep one-on-one so deep it's like founder's talk on the change log. It's beautiful. It is beautiful. Some would say it's better, especially when the ads are removed.

Cause it is even shorter cause it's long enough. Okay. Yes. Truth. Moving on to our next voicemail.

This is Nabil Suleiman. Hello, Adam and Jared. Congratulations on another great year.

Uh, really so many of the episodes on, on the change log are amazing. Uh, but really

ones that have, uh, stuck out to me, especially just looking through the list of episodes this year, uh, really anything with Kelsey Hightower and, uh, or the oxide folks, uh, have just been, you know, great episodes and I've really enjoyed them. I also really liked the, uh,

money ball episode. Uh, it was just a nice exploration of entrepreneurship and software that doesn't necessarily have to be like a rocket ship startup. Other episodes, uh, the Bobiverse books, you know, in the talk about that, I, I listened to those books this year and then

really enjoyed them all. I'm kind of sad. I listened to them a little too fast and finished them all in about a week. The, uh, ergonomic keyboards episode was great. The right to

repair episode was really great. And I think there were several episodes on home lab things. And I really liked those two. Uh, for me, the change log is a big source of discovery for,

for new types of software and things like that, that I had never heard of before. Uh, this year

it was Zulip, I think in particular, I was, uh, and it was great timing cause I was getting tired

of Slack and the other mainstream chat platforms. Uh, and yeah, Zulip was just a nice, uh, breath of fresh air. And yeah, I've really, really liked using it from other years, especially Doppler and Nats were two pieces of software that, uh, are still a very big part of my software systems now.

And I really appreciate being, uh, you know, introduced to these softwares through your podcast. Um, anyways, thanks again for a great year and I'm looking forward to the next. I dig it cause Nabil was, he started the WordPress drama thread by the way, and has been consistently posting in there and that's been going on for a while. So much so that I'm scrolling back. So September 21st, Nabil posted odd drama going on in the WordPress land thoughts and linked out to like two ex posts. And then yes, Don McKinnon just after that. So maybe that was where you were connecting it a little behind the scenes there, but yeah, dig those. I mean, thanks for listening. So awesome. Yeah. And, and being in Zulip. That's right. And joining us there and threading up the threads.

I like to hear stories like this one where it's like, I found cool technology because of the show. I adopted cool technology. Now my life is better because of cool technology. Like for me, that's kind of what we are all about is like finding cool stuff, showing it to people, talking about it. That's a win. It's a big win. Yeah. It's always been this spotlight kind of nature behind the scenes, this, this exposure, this where's the light less shined and shine it there and see what's over there. And sometimes it's not so much duds, but like just cool stuff, but not so interesting. Yeah. And then sometimes it's like, wow, there was a diamond in the rough over there and we found that thing. And now it's like, boom, it's, yeah. You know, all the places doing all the things like Zulip. Clean it off, shine it up, you know, hanging out in Zulip.

And Babaverse. The Babaverse has got to be exposed there. It's not software, but it's, it is

book, books. Certainly on your list. And is he Taylor episode? Yeah, it is on my list. How does it feel that your list is almost entirely predictable? Well, do you have any surprises in there? I don't know. I mean, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Well, that's why I asked you how you feel. I don't know if it's good or bad. I feel like that, that means that I'm probably in alignment with our audience. No, I mean, not predictable by them, by me, like I know which ones you're going to pick. It's just cause I know you so well. Well, I'm cool with that. There you go. That's that's what I mean. I dig it. Okay, good. So do I. Here's Nabil's remix. This year, kind of sad. I think there were no episodes on rocket ships. I really like those. I think there were several episodes on software things. Never rocket ships. Entrepreneurships. Great. Anything with ships, but really so many of the episodes about software, things like that, that I had never heard of before. That doesn't necessarily have to be like a, you know, podcast. I really like rocket ships. It's got some Dunk Kong vibes. I was just going to say that. Yeah. Donkey Kong. Yup. The other vibe I get is Rain Man. Didn't that kind of have like Rain Man vibes? I just really like rocket ships. Just the way he remixed it. Yes. The obsession with a specific thing. Tropical freeze. We needed a new version of tropical freeze. I am down. I mean, DK for life. I'm 100% down. Yeah. For some more DK. All day, all day. DK all day, man. That's what I always say. So I've been listening to some synthwave remixes of, I guess, gamey soundtracks, remixed, like synthwave style. And Donkey Kong Country, et cetera, translates very well. Retro Kid on YouTube. Check them out. Amazing. Yeah. Code to those beats. Nice. And I've archived them to my Plex, by the way. Did you try out Archive Box? No, I have a Plex, so I've just been Plexing it. But the principles of Archive Box have crept into my life. Right. But you had mentioned that maybe you were working too hard, and this

might be easier. But you already have it solved, so it's just. Yeah. I already have the software, and I already have an uptime guarantee on it, and et cetera. So I'm just Plexing it, essentially.

I'm just moving it into my music category in Plex. And I go to Retro Kid, and I push play, and all the albums just queue up. And I work. Sweet. And there's a good Zelda track in there. So you would be. Bring it. Yeah, you'd love it. I'm currently playing the new Zelda,

Echoes of Wisdom, where you get to play as Zelda herself. My little daughters love it, and we are playing it right now. It's a classic Zelda, exactly what you'd expect. So far, we're about 45 minutes in, so I can't review it entirely. But so far, so good. Who's this? It's our old friend, Lars Wichmann. Hi, this is Lars Wichmann, a longtime listener, occasional guest. I recently

did my Pocket Casts wrapped type of deal, and three of my top four most frequently listened podcasts had the same theme, as in visual theme, as in dark with neon green colors. And to most people, maybe the Changelog does not have that. For Changelog++ members, it does. And of course, it's better. But yeah, the other ones are Acquired and Oxide and Friends. And you've done the Oxide

and Friends crossover when I appreciate it greatly. So Acquired crossover next? Maybe. That'd be cool.

And aside from that, I really appreciated the episodes with the Beatmaster, Breakmaster

cylinder. I'm sorry. And since went to band camp and picked up his back catalog for not that much money. And now I have a bunch of his hits, among others, Changelog Dance Party, Burned Out on Minidisc, and I play them in my office. So that's what I'm up to. What do you think about that, Adam?

Maybe getting Acquired in 25 on the show? I'm down. I'm on the .fm right now, Acquired.fm, checking it out. I've heard of the show. I haven't listened to too many of them. It's very popular. I haven't listened to it either, but people love it. I think they do a good job. I'm down. Crossover away. Let's do it. We'll see if they're down. You know, I'm seeing their about page and it seems like they're maybe on a stage. Like I think this next year, I want to call it a conference, but it'll be cool to do a live podcast. Like sell tickets, do a lot of podcasts. That'd be kind of cool. Have you seen this where this like the thing that podcasters are doing? I'm wondering can we sell 50 tickets maybe? I wouldn't sell 50. In a city? I think if you went to like New York or San Francisco or yeah, Austin. Austin even. Maybe Austin. Austin's kind of small though.

It's big, small. Yeah, but it's tech big to a certain extent. Yeah, I suppose Elon's doing

something. And it's centrally located. Like people will fly maybe. True. Or drive. I mean, it is my backyard, so I'm down. I mean, SF would be much easier though. I just have less hope that we have a ton of listeners here. I think we have more based on our stats. I've shipped out some shirts and some other merch lately, and I'm telling you, Texas listens. Okay. All right. I'm wrong then. I love it. Not necessarily wrong. I'm just saying there are some people there. Anywho, yeah, that would be cool. I also think it's super rad that Losh is creating mini discs of BMC beats and stuff and listening to them on mini disc. I mean, analog. I mean, not literally analog, but like real life for the win. Real life for the win. Hardware, physical media for the win is what I meant to say. Yeah. Physical media is cool. I don't know if I like physical media

personally. I think it's cool, but like, maybe not. Good take. It's cool, but maybe not. Y'all didn't see his face. He was struggling to figure out what to say and he came up with a good take.

Well, I was about to opine then I'm like, I'm just going to leave it. Oh gosh. You should opine at least a sentence. I like physical things. I, of course, also live through the time period where I was digitizing all my things. I don't like to print, but I also kind of think printing's cool

now. So it's like, what's old is new again. And I think that physical media has a tangibility to it that we desire. And so in that way, it is cool. Obviously there's lots of drawbacks. Like, you know, your dog eats it or something. My vehicle can't play it. It's useless to me in like the places I consume content. Well, how about a record player like in your house? Do you think that would be cool? I would love a record player. So that's cool. I would, I would go there. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of what he's doing. It sounds like with mini discs, you know? Okay. That's cool

then. Okay. I'll take it back then. I need more content. I'm glad I opined. I'm down for that kind of thing. Like I want a listening room, Jared. This is like intentional listening, I feel like is what he's doing, which is very much what a record player's like. It's like, I'm going to listen to this now. Yeah. It's not like, oh, let's just cue up artists. Right. Let

me just download this off YouTube and just throw it in my planks and get to work. Now this is like, let's sit down and enjoy some Breakmaster Cylinder beats. All right, Losh, remix him.

Hi, this is Losh Wilkman, a long time listener, occasional guest. I really appreciated the episodes with the Breakmaster Cylinder and went to band camp and picked up his back catalog. And now I have a bunch of his hits for not that much money. I have among others and, and I had a dance party in my office. That's what I'm up to. I have a dance party in my office. That's what I'm up to. So I can say that the, I don't know if this is how your household went, Jared, but the moment that dance party was on the actual, I guess, proverbial airwaves,

like on Spotify, I was like, okay, that's when it's real. And, you know, obviously we QA'd it, we kind of like previewed some things, but I didn't listen to it with intention and enjoyment and motion, like body motion, until it was on Spotify. And the moment it was, I queued it up and legit, me and the kids just dance. They mainly danced a lot. I just like moved a little, you know, they were really having a lot of fun for the whole thing. Like we just listened end to end the entire album. It was awesome. Yeah. It's just a cool thing to have that be real. I definitely got cooler in my kid's eyes when we had some actual beats, like on Apple music and Spotify, even though we were not the artist, we were just the curators of this music, just a vessel. We're a vessel for which these things came. We were part of the creative process,

you know, but BMC does all the, all the creation, true creation. And I will say that like that,

that Dracula's purse, you know, like that sound just immediately triggers in a good way, me and my kids. And it's just like, yeah, here we go. Yes. Which I think Dracula's purse is, which is the first real track off of next level, the video game inspired one. I think that's our most listened to track on the proverbial airwaves. It's the most popular one now.

It makes sense because the Castlevania soundtrack was just phenomenal. Yeah. And Dracula's purse is

obviously an homage to Dracula's curse, which was the true music that came from the video game that

literally everybody loves way more than Zelda. Just saying, just saying, well, we could take a poll. I think you might lose that one. It would probably lose. It would, no offense. It's just not as popular. It's more of a cult classic. It's a dang shame. Hey man, I love Castlevania. So you're not going to get me to disagree. Although the fact that you don't like Zelda, I do like Zelda. I just never got into it as much. Right. That's all fair enough. I identified more so with Castlevania, you know, just had different touch points. I suppose it might've been the first, might've been the first NES game I had like maybe bought or like there was some connection to it where it was, it was up there more than Zelda. And I also grew up poor. So I don't think I was able to afford Zelda for many years. I think I had to play my friends. It was gold. So it was cool. You know, like that it had the gold cartridge, but you know, it didn't cost any more than the other games. Yeah. It was, it was super cool. You know, I didn't have the bling to get the thing, you know, I'm sorry. You had to settle for Castlevania. Yeah. All right. Moving on here comes Nick Nisi. My favorite episodes of the change log are the ones where Adam and Jared just let loose and just get so excited about the topics that they're discussing. That's things like home lab for Adam. His face just lights up. You can hear it in his voice. He gets very excited about that. And the same thing goes for Jared. When it comes to TypeScript, you just can't control how excited he is about type safe JavaScript. And it really shows in the podcasts. Aside from that, I really enjoyed hanging with you guys at that conference in January, seeing you work the hallway and get amazing interviews from attendees and speakers and playing a really fun game of JS danger. That was so fun. Thank you for all that you do. And I am very much looking forward to what this new change log podcast universe is all about. So much emotion, Nick. I appreciate that. Nick brings it. He does bring it. So then I'm thinking like, okay, he was joking about you, obviously, because you hate TypeScript. So was he joking about you? Or at least you do on a podcast. And I'm thinking like, maybe he thinks I don't like home lab and he's not telling the truth about me. I think he was being sincere with yours and joking with mine. Gotcha. It's part of the shtick, right? It's a setup. See, he set it up. Yes. Right. Nick's a showman, you know? Good one, Nick. He knows how to set it up and knock it down.

I really, you know, I think that was the first time I met Nick. Yeah. Well, no, I met Nick back at the JS conference back in like Nebraska times. The very first Nebraska JSConf. Yeah. Yeah. And we've obviously digitally hung out. Right. Zooms and riversides and podcasts. I don't think you guys hung out back in that. We were very busy. There were so many balls in the air between organizing the conference and trying to do beyond code. The video thing we're up to, it was a whirlwind. We should bring that back just for fun to see what people who never saw that, just to get a glimpse of like the experiments, you know, the trials and tribulations. Right. It's out there. There's a playlist on our YouTube. I'm not going to link to it directly, but it's there. I'm not going to link to it directly. You will not get a link from me. It was the very first changelog films effort. I think. Yes, it was. I do want to say though, about Nick. He's actually pretty cool. He's actually pretty cool. Surprise. Surprise. Except for the whole TypeScript thing. I just don't understand why, why the love, why the fanaticism, you know? Well, there's some things you just can't know. It's like, you know, TypeScript is kind of the Java of JavaScript. Nick would agree. And no one gets excited about Java. I mean, it's fine. It does its job, but like, what is there to get excited about and love

and fanboy over TypeScript like types, static types. It's not exciting. Maybe you think it's better, but I don't know. Let's just listen to Nick's remix. Let me just say it is not better TypeScript. It's not better. Yeah. It's worse. Here we go. My favorite episodes of the changelog are the ones where Adam and Jared just let loose and just get so excited about TypeScript. Jared's face just lights up. You can hear it in his voice. He gets very excited about the TypeScript. It really shows in the podcasts. Aside from that, I really enjoyed hanging with you guys at that conference all about TypeSafe of JavaScript and it really should. TypeScript saves another day. Maybe that's why Jared. Maybe. I mean, I'm almost converted. You're right.

Ah, yeah. That was a good preacher right there. Good preacher.

All right. Next up, Rusty Nail. Hello there, listeners. My favorite moments of the year are

number one, big thanks for remastering 10,000 hours of deliberate programming. That was my

overall favorite episode for two plus years that I've listened to the podcast and I've been meaning to come back to that episode. However, I don't have to do that now that I re-listened it again in the main feed. Number two, in the go time, three, three, two, the discussion of the founder mode led me to a conclusion that I've always had it on myself, but I didn't know how it was called. And during this summer on one of the interviews, I was asked what made me an outlier among my peers and coworkers. And now I know what should have been the answer, which at the moment I did not. Now I am prepared for the next one. In the episode of 611 of Changelog, I was really excited to hear the voices of the core Python developer team. I've programmed in Python all my career, and I have never interacted with these people in any way. Hearing the voices, I was generally excited about it. In the practical AI 257, it was mentioned how the role of corporate culture and non-tech people impacts the AI adoption in big corporations and organizations. And that was an eye-opening moment for me. So I was really excited to hear that. Number five, my absolute favorite episode of the year is when the secret service or police knocking on the door, I think it was episode 609 for not even hacking, but vulnerability reporting. And with a few of the jokes that went along with the story. Next, we share a fun fact in our morning standups. And the day I learned about the boss factor from the Changelog conference number 70, I had to share the fun fact and I shared with the team was what boss factor was, but it was actually called Morbid

by our CEO. And finally, I think we're missing insane hiring market episode this year. And this

was the year that I shifted my job. First time over last five years. And if you're going to do it, I do have a question to ask. It's more like a paradox. If everyone complains about not having enough talent and people to hire when you apply for a job at some company, you never hear anything back. If you don't have any connections there, how does this paradox happen? Good question. We did not do an insane hiring market with Gergay or Rose this fall. We normally did it every fall. What's up with that? And I can't speak for you Adam, but I just forgot about it this time. Oh gosh. Did you

forget about it or? I would like to say that maybe the the well has dried up on maybe I don't know on the, should we dip back into that hiring market? It seems like we should. It was enjoyed. I love Gergay. I love talking to him. Yeah, people like that. I think we should definitely get Gergay on the show. He does have his own podcast now. So that's a thing, but maybe, you know, that could be a January thing. It doesn't have to be in the fall. It can be whenever we want it to be. So we could queue that up for a Rusty. Let's do it. And ask that question. Yeah, I like doing it in the fall though. It's a good end cap to the year because it's almost like how do we, how do we get here and where are we going? Well, we dropped the ball in the fall though. Yeah. So maybe we'll just wait

till next fall. Maybe. Sometimes two years is the right amount of years. Sometimes. But I was, I was pumping my fist on the best worst code base. Yes. That was a good one. I love that story. Yeah, great story. 10,000 hours remastered. That was actually, I liked how that worked out actually. We had a gap and we were thinking about what to do and I was like let's remaster an oldie but a goodie. So I'm glad at least one person really enjoyed it. I think that it got re-listened to another 25-ish thousand times. Maybe 20, 21,000 times at least based on the site stats. And the remaster version actually has some cool stuff. Chapters! So the first time we did it was pre-chapters and now it has chapters so you know this listening experience might actually be slightly more enjoyable because you can jump around. Cue the music. My favorite numbers are the number five. Generally excited about it. The number two next is seven but I think five plus two is actually seven and that was an eye-opening moment for me. Now you know the answer. And finally we're missing my

absolute favorite number is oh my gosh um I don't know if this was was it or or not.

I was thinking maybe this number at the end might have been like four, eight, fifteen, sixteen, twenty-three, forty-two which is from the TV show Lost. That would have been cool. That would have

been a good tie-in. Still good though. Still good. That was fun. He would have had to say the numbers

to get that to do that but yeah that'd be hard. You got to have specific numbers that maybe Rusty didn't say. Yeah. When I said cue the music I was thinking uh the the the song jump around though. I came to get down. I came to get down so get off your feet and jump around. I came to get down so get off your feet and jump around. That's right. There you go Cypress Hill kids. No. That's Cypress Hill isn't it? No that's uh it's the the Leprechauns. What? Not the Leprechauns uh House of Pain. Yeah. I told you House of Pain. You said Cypress Hill. Listen to this. It's produced by DJ Muggs of Cypress Hill who also covered the song. All right so take that. What? That's right. Jump around. I don't I don't know about this history. School me quickly. Okay. Jump Around is a song by the American hip-hop group House of Pain produced by DJ Muggs of Cypress Hill who all who has also covered the song and was released in May 1992 by Tommy Boy and XL as the first single from the debut album House of Pain. So I wasn't wrong. I just had it wrong sort of. There's a tie-in. There's a reason why I thought Cypress Hill but yeah it's House of Pain. That's cool. I didn't

know that. Yeah. Glad you uh messed up and but didn't. Same. I'm always glad when I mess up and

it's not actually a mess up. All right who's this? Well it's only Matt Ryer. Hello everybody. Matt Ryer here. Just want to say a big thank you to everybody that supported us uh with the Go Time podcast and everything that I do on Changelogue and France. It's a platform you know it they just make great podcasts and I can't wait to see what the future of Changelogue is gonna look like. Oh sorry I'm just oh what oh change oh yeah change log no no no now you've said it that is really

yeah it's obvious now but oh I've only seen it written down you're right yeah okay that's really clever. Well happy new year everyone and I hope you let me come and be an idiot a bit on future podcasts. I love you all. Bye. Wow. Changelogue. Oh Matt. I don't have to say that. I don't say about that you know. Matt's a character. I'll say this. Yeah. Stay tuned because Matt Ryer will be our very first friend of 2025. It's already booked so. As it should be. It should be. Get with your friends. It was the the pilot for Friends. It was. It was the inspiration the proving ground so to speak. Proving ground yeah. Oh and Matt's always up to something and he is I will tell you this also he is up to something for this next episode of Changelogue and Friends. Oh really? He's up to something. Do you know what the something is? I know a little bit about it but I'm not gonna say

any more than that. What might it involve? Just give us like a like one one hint off color if you have to. Whatever. Not direct. Yes and. Oh that's so revealing. You said it so quickly like as if you had it queued up. No I didn't. You put me on the spot. I thought this is a good hint. Is that too much? Okay. Okay. Here's Matt Ryer remixed. Let's do it. Hello everybody. Matt Ryer here. Just want to say a big thank you to everybody that's supported in Changelogue and Friends. You know they just make great podcasts.

And I can't wait to see what the future of Changelogue is gonna look like.

Happy New Year everyone and I hope you let me come and be an idiot a bit on future podcasts. I love you all. Bye. I told you BMC has some new toys. I'm just not sure what this show has become. I think it might be like a show-off center for Breakmaster Cylinder and then obviously a

show-off center for our listeners. Very much not about us at all. At the very yeah at least a

playground yeah. I keep trying to talk. I keep getting cut off by these voicemails. Well there's something poetic about that. Matt. Oh I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to it. I should say we might have to bleep that but I wouldn't know. I have no idea what she was saying. I assume it was what Matt was saying in French. It's possible. I have no idea. So if you knew if you can hear that and translate it for us. I'll have my daughter listen

to it. She speaks French. Okay yeah. We've reached our final caller. Any guesses Adam on who it might

be? The person that might leave a voicemail the very last moment. Give me a second. You need a hint? Sure. It's the same as the last caller last year. It's a big hint. Unless you didn't make it at the end of the show before you fell asleep. I fell asleep. I fell asleep. Jamie Tana. Oh gosh yes. Jamie Tana. Just in time Jamie. That's what we call him. Really? I just made that up on the

spot. That's a good one though. I love it. Yeah that's nice. It's so uh yeah I was gonna make a

timing joke but I can't find my words. Yeah all right well let's leave it from Jamie then. Hey

Adam and Jared it's Jamie Tana here. Thanks for another awesome year of Chain Chalk and

plus plus it is so much better. So much better. I think I'm making this a tradition of me submitting late so I am sorry again but hopefully I managed to make it over time. I probably didn't but we'll find out this week. I think that's probably the segue into what my favorite episode of the year has been which I'm probably a little bit biased because it was me. In February I joined you on Friends 31 to talk about being public, how ADHD affects me including being late to submitting things like this, dependency management data and also kickstarted my podcast career where I followed up with conversation on Go Time in episode 328 about OpenAPI. But enough about me. This year has been an epic year for Changelog in particular like the first year of Friends in full which I've been incredibly thoroughly enjoying which you may be able to guess from me listening to a whopping 45 episodes this year including one that I finished listening to this morning. Some of my favorite episodes this year especially in Friends have been the new Hashtag Prime episodes Friends 47 and 59 which have been really fun listening on my own but also with my partner. There's a fun different thing to listen to as well as meeting some really awesome and interesting people at the different hallway tracks at conferences you've been at. I also really enjoyed listening to Adam and Gerald solo either in Friends 70 or the plus plus special episode at Build 2024 and hearing a bit more from the two of you because we always hear from

your point of view from behind the mic. Data wise I've been split on Go Time interviews listening to 38 podcasts a piece this year and then ship it just behind on 35 lessons. In total according to my podcast app in 2024 I've listened to eight days worth of podcasts with you it's been great but it's bittersweet with the news of the change log podcasting universe. I'm cautiously optimistic for the future and I hope that in the coming year I'll be having some similar numbers across the whole podcast universe. Just quickly to go back to interviews

there's been some really incredible interviews this last year but to give just three of my top ones Brian Cantrell in interviews 592, Akon from Hack Club in interview 620 and Danny Thompson in interview 617. A bunch of really interesting and diverse thoughts and yeah I've loved the way that you have just some really incredible people from different walks of life different stages of career and different viewpoints. I'm going to stop rambling now I want to say thanks again to all the many many folk who have contributed to another really great year of change plus it is better like it's so much better it's been better for years getting on it. I love how it's better has become a thing like an unstoppable freight train I love that it's

it's so recycled throughout it's a a dumb thing I said one time just like messing around you know

and it stuck that's the and my kids mimic it as well my youngest my five-year-old they you know

in their kid voice change law plus plus it's better you know they hold their nose because you make it sound nasally for some reason I'm not sure to be if I should be offended or not but the

Danny Thompson one I like that I'm glad that got out there yeah that one almost didn't make it out yeah it's uh it was can you talk about the the travels the data had to go through to get to us to become an mp3 on the airwaves I'm holding in my hand which you would see if we had video first production a nick nisi hard drive which holds something like 35 gigabytes of film the proverbial film not actual film from our of stuff at that conference and this had to come by way uh we were

at that conference in Austin Texas our Danny Thompson interview is on here and it took a long

time to get it gathered together I'm not sure the whole story but Clark Sell diligently gathered it was just too much to just send us I mean that's a lot of data and so the idea was like sneaker net I guess for the win and so Clark saw nick at this summer's that conference in Wisconsin so there's two that conferences Austin Texas and Wisconsin Dells and nick happened to have his hard drive on

him so Clark gave him the 35 gigs or whatever it is and put it on the hard drive I actually think

it's more than that now that I'm saying it's something ridiculous like 500 gigabytes it was just too much to just put on the drop box or something I guess and uh nick sneaker netted it via an airplane back to his house and then I had lunch with him because you know nick and I both live in the Omaha Nebraska area I'm in Bennington which is northwest of Omaha and he's in Bellevue which is kind of southeast Omaha so we aren't super close together and probably a 40-minute drive if he was going to come to my house but we meet in the middle have lunch sometimes and so he brought me this to lunch and I went through it and I extracted it and I gave it to Jason

our editor and Jason did his best with it and he handed it to you and we said can we ship this interview and you know the audio wasn't our standard quality and so there were some questions and it wasn't that long honestly it was kind of a shorter episode and so we actually almost deep-sixed it didn't we Adam uh we came close we uh we almost deep-sixed it because we thought about

what was what was it about it well it didn't sound amazing and it was a little bit shorter than we normally do right and we thought well wouldn't we just get danny back on the pod and just do it fresh like a real episode which was another route we could have went but you know this is a business we do put shows out on the weekly and we needed a show that week so it's like that was definitely part of the decision-making process we can't act like it wasn't we have sponsors who count on us to put shows out and so I was like can this be a standalone episode and I'm glad that at least for Jamie it was one of the best of the year hopefully other people liked it too Danny was over the moon because I saw Danny at all things open I told him I don't think we're going to get that episode out and thankfully it was about his life story more than it was about current events or anything because it was last January that we recorded it so yeah it was pretty much evergreen well this January last year if you're listening to this in 2025 last January January of 24 yes got a give to get back yeah I gotta get to get back to get back I'm glad we got it out there because I think that I don't know Danny's full story aside from the what we had shared there but I think he had been newer or newish to sharing his story especially on stage I think since then he's had more reps and so there you know we actually may be late to the party in terms of sharing that story sure but obviously sharing it on the on a conference stage so to set the stage a bit more elongated but shortened is that even a thing is we were on

stage with Danny did we pass the mic back and forth I don't think so yeah okay I think we each

had our own mics but they're handheld mics they weren't like stationary mics we had them handheld so we can pull them away from our face there's no breath going on and then we had some Q&A

afterwards and so the Q&A didn't fit and so if you're at the conference it was a lengthy conversation with more context as a podcast the Q&A just didn't fit because it was so contextual

to the conference and the screens in front of us and so it just made sense to like trim that but I'm glad we got it out I'm glad that the the sneaker net worked out I'm glad Nick had his hard drive I'm glad Clark Sell came through and got us the the data and even if it was published in a recorded January 30th and published November 14th that's cool at least we still shipped it you know huh and uh it was awesome I dug it all right Jamie thank you as always for calling in just in time just in time here is your Breakmaster Cylinder Remix this year has been an epic year awesome year awesome and interesting really fun it's been great a bunch of really interesting thoughts really incredible so much better so much better so much better been better for years get in on it but enough about me that one smacks so much better for years that beats a banger check the scoreboard the numbers don't lie I reversed it what'd you reverse well it's actually the numbers don't lie check the scoreboard oh I don't know the same dude shaboy excuse me kazoon kite it's jay-z that's a jay-z line yeah man here's my concern with jay-z is like I like the man's music and everything and shaboy certainly comes from it but it turns out he might be like a really awful person turns out yeah well you know the Pete Diddy tapes are are dropping and you know jay-z

may be implicated some seriously wicked stuff so and not wicked in the Boston accent kind of a way wicked smart wicked bad bad yeah so anyways uh distancing myself perhaps I'm not gonna drop the shaboy but most people don't even know what it is well I thought because of the shaboy you would know I don't know that verse check the what is it it's uh numbers don't lie check the scoreboard

okay I know I've pointed at scoreboard before especially in high school basketball and said scoreboard well that's a thing I mean I think it's a thing and he made it a lyric he didn't create it he didn't coin it yeah I was gonna say he stole it from me when I was in high school I used to do that yeah come on theft now add that to the list yeah yeah idea theft you know copyright okay so a good attempt you know we missed the layup on that one it was my fault but that's it that's our 12 voicemails and remixes thank you BMC thank you to all of our listeners but now it's our turn to talk oh yes it's a whole new show now chapter marker drop it part two another hour of show coming up get ready we're going for a bathroom break we're shaking our legs I'm just kidding what's up friends I'm here in the breaks with David Shue founder and CEO at retool if you didn't know retool is the fastest way to build internal software so David we're here to talk about retool I love retool you know that been a fan of yours for years but I'm on the outside and you're clearly on the inside right you're on the inside right I think so yeah I'd say so okay cool so given that you're on the inside and I'm not on the inside

who is using retool and why are they using retool yeah so the primary reason someone uses retools typically they are a backend engineer who's looking to build some sort of internal tool and it involves the front end and backend engineers typically don't care too much for the front end they might not know react redux all that well and they say hey I just want a simple button simple form on top of my database or api why is it so hard and so that's kind of the core concept behind retool is front end web development has gotten so difficult in the past

5 10 20 years it's so complicated today put together a simple form with the submit button have to submit to an api you have to worry for example about oh you know when you press submit button you got to bounce it or you got to disable it when it's you know is fetching is true and then

when it comes back you got to enable the button to get when there's an error you got to display

the error message there's so much crap now with building a simple form like that and retool takes that all away and so really I think the core reason why someone would use retool is they just don't want to build any more internal tools I want to save some time yeah clearly the front end has gotten complex no doubt about that I think even frontenders would agree with that sentiment and then you have back end folks that already have access to everything api keys production database servers whatever but then to just stand up retool to me seems like the next real easy button because you can just remove the entire front end layer complexity you're not trying to take it away you're just trying to augment it you're trying to give developers a given interface that's retool build out your own admin your own view to a google sheet or to the production database all inside retool let retool be the front end to the already existing back end is that about right yeah that is exactly right the way we think about it is we want to abstract away things that a developer should not need to focus on such the developer can focus on what is truly specific or unique to their business and so the vision of what we want to build is something like an AWS actually where I think AWS really fundamentally transformed the infrastructure layer back in the day developers spend all their time thinking about how do I go rack servers how do I go manage

power supplies how do I upgrade my database without it going down how do I change out the hard drive while still being online all these problems and they're not problems anymore because nowadays when you want to upgrade your database just go to rds press a few buttons and so what AWS did to the infrastructure layer is what we want to do to the application layer specifically on the front end today and for me that's pretty exciting because as a developer myself I'm not really honestly that interested for example in managing infrastructure in a nuts and bolts way I would much rather be like hey you know I want an s3 bucket boom there's an extra bucket I want a database boom there's a database and similarly on the front end or on the in the application layer there is so much crap people have to do today when it comes to building a simple crud application it's like you know you probably have to install 10 15 maybe even 20 different libraries you probably don't know what most libraries do it's really complicated to load a simple form if you know you're probably downloading almost like a megabyte or two of javascript it's so much crap to build a simple form and so that's kind of the idea behind retool is could it be a lot simpler could we just make it so much faster could you go from nothing to a form on top of your database or api in two minutes we think so yeah I think so too so listeners retool is built for scale it's built for enterprise it's built for everyone and retool is built for developers that's you you can self-host it you can run in the cloud and custom sso audit log sock2 type 2 professional services starting with retool is simple fast and of course it's free if you want to try it right now so go to retool.com slash changelog that's r-e-t-o-o-l dot com slash changelog favorite episodes of ours how many are yours are left standing let me just say one thing before we truly break over okay because i recall the podcast with jamie yes i recall being there obviously i recall this show was awesome good i do not recall titling that show yeeting stuff into public did you tell that sans me was i on vacation or something it's like a friday afternoon i just slapped the title on it and went okay well he said that did he okay and it was all about him doing like public you know his whole public salary and writing and everything and so eating is a term what is the yeeting yeeting yeeting yeah to yeet something is to throw it d-i-l yeah it's what the kids are saying at least they were saying it about 10 years ago i think it's kind of old eating yeah yeeting hmm yeet see i mean you say that when you just toss somebody yeet i didn't toss anybody for one no it's not you jamie was yeeting stuff in the putt he's just been throwing stuff into public you know i got it i'm getting it but okay yeah i titled that one without you you know sometimes we just roll i have an idea i like it i'm just gonna publish that sucker you know it's so obvious why why check exactly especially when it's something that they say on the show it's like too easy i have a long list okay i mean not even i'm not even sure that i can express this list it's lengthy well we are while we're bike shedding titles should we just get the titles out of the way favorite titles did you write some down oh yeah yeah okay let's just do that one quick because it's less emotional can we do it quick let's do it yeah you me or you uh let's just go back and forth okay me first okay great title it's not always dns uh that's him i won't say it yeah oh that's in your favorite list yeah uh i like that one because we wanted to call it it's always dns but we realized on the show that paul vixie actually didn't like that statement and so we inverted it similar to the not insane tech hiring market and we said it's not always dns so that's why i like that one your turn you'll rent chips and be happy oh yeah this was a recent friends episode wasn't it yeah and what were we talking about again zach smith equinix metal fame right previous to that was packet right but they go back to the um we talk about subscriptions inside of data centers and stuff right because of like recycling hardware and getting kind of having the best tech right and his big idea is like to recycle the hardware and subscribe to it and people were not down with his idea by the way we had lots of people writing in like this isn't a good idea i was i don't know data centers i don't know big data business they wrote this in where they write this in at in zulip did i miss the chat there was some chat i don't remember oh probably zulip probably internets okay but interesting conversation brought out a lot of people's thoughts and great title because we were talking about the whole world economic forum and you'll own nothing and be happy and this is you will rent chips these are gpu's and be happy good one my turn retirement is for suckers that is a good one oh talk about a quote i mean he literally said that cameron cameron say came out right at the beginning it's just like retirements for suckers and that was the show title show title you will like this one i think it's the best one of the year if there was an award for the best title of the year this is it okay the wrong place to slap a person i believe it's the best of the year that one is in my list as well i think it stands still yet that's the wrong place to slap a person i mean it's it's created some major waves a lot of drama i mean would it be different if it was done differently maybe i don't think so of course referring to the matt mullenweg call out of wb engine at word camp that's the wrong place to slap a person we recorded this friend's episode yes i think with nick nisi as well right after that event and so that's what this thing is referring to and adam said that on the show i do like to have show titles that are something that was said on the show i think it's a nice easy way of having a tie-in especially when you don't know what it means at first and then you hear it later on the show i've always enjoyed that it does make it sweeter i agree that was in my list of best titles how about this one the old hot and juicy that's in my list too adam's the best the old hot and juicy guys what was the context what do you why did he say that do you recall um it was similar to a horse head in your bed you know it's the uh the offer you can't refuse the old hot and juicy is like this thing that's like he was referring to the article written by matt to say about open tofu potentially copyright infringing terraform yes and it's like this the old hot and juicy is like can i can i quote him from the transcript yeah go ahead adam jaco says yeah and the reputation dragon was the reason to do it somebody replied to me on twitter and called the cease and desist letter the old hot and juicy right so the letter was the old hot and juicy okay not the article not the article but he said a little hot and juicy like three four times more times on that show i think so and it became the show title you got another one the b s o d crowd strikes back that's my other one this was of course our crowd strike episode with robert ross probably should have said it differently bsod the blue screen of death to drag it out doesn't like let it land the bsod crowd strikes back right well of course we are referring to the empire strikes back but it's the blue screen of death that's crowd striking back yeah because it did man all of a sudden here comes the bsod striking a pc near you around the crowd strike debacle incident yeah debacle i that's probably a debacle that's an incident for sure oh for sure a scalable incident at that bigger than an incident incident doesn't do it justice debacle was a great word haven't caught up with the the ripples though like what's changed as a result of this happening that'd be good yeah i don't know i mean that can be kind of boring maybe well if it's interesting then it's interesting but if it's boring that's true what's changed very little there's like a few more processes inside crowd strike now all right last one for me best title of the year this one saved us from a bunch of other bad titles so from a bunch of bad titles that we had come up before it and the title is major dot semver dot patch that was a good title all caps of course we had a hard time naming that episode we did about semver but why not use semver to name semver and call it a patch because the whole thing was about how we can change semver to make it better yeah can we have a major patch of semver solid title yeah 1999 a film odyssey that's a changelog plus plus only it's a bonus show for those who are the cool people you know it's better just saying that was actually almost made my list of favorite episodes but i didn't want to put it on because i feel like that's just rude well i did it for you oh and i'm rude and the last one was the wu tang way yeah that's a good one yeah good show good title fun title all right here we go favorite episodes how many years are left standing standing like have not been mentioned like they haven't been referenced by anybody else let's see here oh one two three four technically five so fine so of my nine i have five favorites and four honorable mentions of my nine i have almost all of them i have seven of nine okay maybe six depending on how you count this one you just want to go through the list real fast uh you want to do all yours and then all mine all mine and all yours i think everyone's waiting for me to reveal my unprecedented yeah because i mean it's been like an hour and a half i'm not but i think they might be they've forgotten about it by now i've forgotten about it but i'm down for it i'm just kidding with you all right so here's what i'm gonna say and i think you're gonna like this okay uh one of my favorite episodes these are in no particular order okay so they're not like one through five this is not my number one favorite episode but right one of my five favorite episodes unprecedented never happened before hasn't come out yet because it's coming out today as or tomorrow as a record and it will be out in the feed on friday but i'm not sure if it's my favorite because it hasn't been produced but i'm pretty sure it's gonna be one of my favorites because it is ghosty with mitchell hashi moto really really please tell me why it's your favorite given that you haven't listened to it it's the most recency bias i could possibly have we just talked to him the other day man recency bias is real no good show though i like great show deep dive he's so thoughtful you know you don't hear from him very much so i hadn't heard from him besides his blog in a long time i think ghosty's legitimately really cool you know if it's not every year that i change both my main text editor which is now zed and my terminal which as of last week and i think it's going to continue why wouldn't it is ghosty really yeah i'm off terminal dot app man i pulled it out of my dock i haven't launched it since he convinced me out of terminal app and i'm on ghosty and i just feel like i'm excited because i think ghosty is going to get way better over the next year and mitchell got me excited so i don't know call it recency bias call it haven't heard the episode yet by us i just got a feeling that's going to be a top for not just me and and so what was your remind what your hint was to me and what i did not get did you give me a hint no i didn't give you i thought you gave me i just told you i was going to do something unprecedented no one's ever picked a show that hasn't shipped yet oh okay that's true and it is in this year that's right that is unprecedented it follows all the rules congratulations jerry thank you thank you probably the best pick of the year uh what do you got going should i share my whole list what should i do well i might as well just keep going down mine good yeah sure why not i'm gonna rig a few rules though uh the other thing i picked number two is all the kaizens oh can i just pick the kaizens as a as a totality it's too hard to do i mean they're a thread i feel like they're chapters in a major podcast they almost are they're like nested chapters so we did five this year five kaizens with cara heart if i had to pick just one it would be the not a pipe dream one the one where he took us on that journey and he revealed to us over time what was going on yes that was just spectacular but epic they are all kind of one long windy road and so i'm just gonna pick all the kaizens i just feel like i'm loving what we're doing with kaizen what's happening there is interesting i feel like that's probably one of the best things we did this year so that's breaking the rules because i picked five episodes as one yeah it just counts as one i'm gonna break the rules one more time oh gosh and i'm going to pick the episodes from that conference oh so this is two for the price of one nice you have how many open tabs yes that was with nick nisi amy dutton and andres pinata andres yeah and the second one was future of energy content food and that was with a bunch of people as well we had a samuel goff future of energy we talked with youtuber jess chan from the coder coder channel and then you did one without me because i had to leave earlier than you with vanessa via and noah jenkins all about agtech and the future of food i thought both of those episodes turned out awesome yeah and all the conversations were good there wasn't a dud in the mix and so i'm picking those two as a bundle as one of my top five of the year okay i dig it okay nice number four the man behind the sandwich with adam lisa gore i just really enjoyed that conversation adam is so smart and experienced and deep i feel like we went really deep places there and i remember making clips and i'm like i got like seven clips here i just i gotta stop clipping this because there's so many good parts fun talk about apple vision pro and what they're doing there with sandwich theater i love that one i've been a fan of his for a long time and i was excited to meet him and he delivered in my last one top five favorite this is change all good friends starbucks dvd peddlers with emily freeman and justin garrison that conversation went off the rails in every great way possible i remember thinking i was excited to have a conversation with them but coming into it the topic that we were supposed to be talking about just wasn't hidden for me at the moment it's like dev rel stuff which we had already just done a dev rel episode with swix maybe a month prior and maybe that's why but like it just never got to the dev rel part is like the last 20 minutes maybe and the conversation just went wild about dvds and nostalgia the 90s and so many good laughs selling things and meeting people at no selling dvds and meeting them at starbucks yeah buying dvds from people at starbucks and then like even listening back to it i was laughing because like me and emily are just awestruck by justin doing this and he's like why why wouldn't i'm like because you might be murdered you know i mean she goes that's wild they were just having so much fun i like to meet people at police stations by choice or because they make you go there well like i once sold a bike bicycle do you ride in the back of the car no no no okay i uh well no i literally will say hey if you want to buy this thing from me meet me at the police station that's a great place to meet somebody yeah 100 not getting murdered there exactly it's a maybe actually it might be it's so obviously safe that it's not safe right so could backfire so just a real quick recap my top five ghostie kaizen's that conference the man behind the sandwich and starbucks dvd peddlers your turn now were these episodes you mentioned ones that were delimited from the list of ones already mentioned because i got so nobody mentioned i think any of those i think that i think our conference hallway tracks were kind of mentioned by a few people yes but i do have some honorable mentions which i'll let you go first and then i'll see because some of those have been picked already but yeah these are all pretty much standalones should i share my entire list or should i share the list that hasn't been shared already share your list that hasn't been shared number one change log interviews 615 rails is having a moment again good one good one yes into the baba verse episode 603 because why not i'm concurring with you on this one the man behind the sandwich 601 nice in the beginning of generative ai episode 576 joe reese you know that was so long i kind of forget it was this year it does feel like a long time ago well we did a hundred episodes so they add up and you think that feels like a lot of episodes ago but it was only like was that march april february i don't know big fan of joe reese data engineering guy and happy we actually went on his pod after that and uh glad to have him back on he's a great conversationalist has lots of cool stories that was fun too going on his podcast i feel like we went there and had no topics yes right pretty much where can we go basically was the conversation that was cool right i appreciate that about joe that he did that because i mean one you can say he didn't plan or two you could say he didn't plan on purpose there you go i know which one he might say this one here was also early last year it's actually one episode before that episode 575 shift left seriously ah i feel like that was a really good show on the shift left id i mean shift left has been said a lot but i think the thing i took away mainly from that was it's always been said like who shifts left developers obviously it's going to shift left into the development cycle right but for me i think i even said it and it was me saying it like my aha moment was that it doesn't have to be developers shifting left that it's in development so it could be those around the you know the dev cycles doesn't have to just be the developer writing the code it could be the team playing the software and the product team it could be that shift left isn't just simply a developer task to pick up it's not the who it's the win yeah it's not the who is the one thank you yeah that's what i said i know you did i remember you're saying it uh that's my list that's my list of ones that haven't been mentioned oh those are those are not mentions because all the rest of them have been hit on the head like right to repair sun dioxide adam jacob system initiative retired not tired zsa yes zsa it was is it on there i mean i had a long list it didn't make my list because it's such a long list the money ball approach best worst code base open source threaded team chat best worst codes base is in my honorable mentions open source thread team chat is in my honor honorable mentions yeah the wu-tang way with ron evans is in my honorable mentions as well as this one hasn't been said yet the winamp era with jordan eldridge yeah that was a fun one even to come up with because when i saw what he was spelunking into when it came to those winamp themes i'm like wow that is some cool stuff there and i think i shared that with you and you're like yeah that's dope let's do it and so we did it uh-huh paraphrase of course i don't think you ever said the word dope i say the word dope dope i call people dopes well that's not nice yeah just my kids yeah well you know it's been a fun year it's been is this the first year where we've was friends around all last year like end to end of last year i don't think so i think we started friends last year yeah and this was probably the first year we've done friends through and through this will be episode 74 of friends so there you go you have a 52 plus a 20 something yeah so yeah first full year of friends what i was trying to make was i think this is the first year where we had two shows a week all year long january to december right and that's why it feels like a lot that's like a hundred episodes yeah it's like it's a lot of shows 101 technically somehow we and by the end of the year we'll have 103 because we have ghosty and this one how we bonus some shows that's crazy well we did some bonuses yeah what do you think was the the through line to the year in terms of there wasn't like a consistent this is the change of the trend line i feel like like the year of this where this is something yeah like ai didn't get touched on a lot this year even though i think it did i mean we talked about ai loosely i believe in the man behind the sandwich you know obviously in the beginning of generative ai with joe reese that was right right in the title there itself i feel like ai didn't play a major conversational role in all these and we didn't talk about with the hh at all no or the moneyball approach no with john in a maker or the best worst code base nope so i think we kind of kept it somewhat ai free i think so mostly ai free like mostly local mostly ai free mostly local fully to go yeah i don't know if there was any major theme for the year as some of our listeners pointed out we obviously camped out in certain areas there's the home lab area there's the programming languages area there's the culture area there's the open source area and i don't know if i had to like pick one thing it's like how about like uh realistic and healthy relationships with technology and the industry something like that yeah i think a lot of the patina of tech is showing and we're having i think more of a appropriate view of both technology itself and the companies that we work for than in the past and i think it's been realized and and shown this year amongst other trends of course the open source deal you know going non-open source and then back again for elastic but then a lot of companies choosing to go non-open source and go fair source business source that whole deal i don't know i'm just rambling yeah it's a hard question i don't have answers slight ramble somebody mentioned i forget whom with their voicemail mentioned episode 70 bus factors and conspiracy theories i think that yeah i enjoy solo shows with you just as much as a guest and i'm glad people like those i think we we do have some you know some good some good stuff let's just say in those kind of shows we good at talking sometimes we good i will say now that i'm looking at this list there is an honorable mention i want to bring up okay and i really really really enjoyed the listen back so i don't always listen to our shows because obviously i'm like there right but i do listen to parts that's why i appreciate our chapters i'm like i was there i'm gonna chapter i'm gonna jump around i'm not gonna you're gonna cypress hill that thing you know go all in and listen to it end to end yeah shop talking friends yeah yeah i mean i thoroughly truly really enjoyed having chris and dave on i feel like we literally were sitting down with friends exactly and we were obviously but i i think that's that to me was just like a such a fun even the way it opened up with like me telling dave that he wasn't on brand with his you know his all caps or camel cases let me fix that and then it turned into like was that a web socket behind the scenes that just opened up the conversation just naturally there was no real troll big true beginning to the show we just opened up there and i think just the conversation was there was no true plan because that's what you're doing anyways right you're just going to sit down and talk to people right i like when that works out to our betterment when when we actually come without a true plan there's a version of an idea there's a concept of a plan yeah there's a concept no i agree that's why i think that that conversation with emily and justin just tickled me so much because afterwards i was like that was just four friends hanging out and maybe the through line there is like four is better than three oh yeah maybe because it's both those produce good like friend like almost party atmosphere conversations but yes that could just be a coincidence as well i could probably think of some times where we've had three and it's felt like that as well like with matt or nick but that's like the whole like that is friends in a nutshell like that's so frenzy is like let's just get people together who our friends or want to be friends are friendly in the case of jamie tana started off with changelog and friendlies and becomes a friend and let's just talk and enjoy each other and laugh and come up with ideas and my question for you is maybe we should end after this because we're getting long in the tooth is changelog plus plus is well known for being better but here's a question is changelog and friends better than changelog interview like than our thing than our show than the thing that we created all these years like maybe friends is actually the better show i'm gonna leave that one as an open question and not as an answered question um something to think about well i don't know if this is a indicative or not but i would probably say based on my list no yeah all my favorites were on interviews that's not to say that i didn't enjoy friends it's just to say that you know i think that my list sort of gravitated there well my favorite titles were on friends of my top five ghostie was an interview the kaizens are friends that conf those one was i think we did one of each or maybe they're both friends man behind the sandwich was an interview and then starbucks dvd peddlers was friends wu tang way was friends win at barrow was friends open source thread team chat that was interview best worst code base that was an interview but it probably could have been a friends we we broke the rules a couple times too like i think you may be on something with this whole three people because when it's three it feels like an interview like 10 years of free code camp was on friends yeah but he's an old friend he's been on the show tons of times we were interviewing i know that that's that's where it's a bendy you know it's a bendy we're trying not to interview him the problem with quincy there's no problems with him but the challenge that's good here's why quincy sucks no the challenge with quincy is he answers questions like their interviews like they're he's gonna give you an interview and so it's hard to just like riff with him it's not that hard but it feels like you're interviewing him because he's gonna give you a two or three minute response yes and he's not gonna give adam or jared much time to chat no he's a talker man i have one more this is the this is the one that broke the rule i think the most potentially on friends developer unhappiness with abby nota we're talking about i think that one is a show that like set up for friends yeah but ended up feeling more like an interview yeah i'm down i'm just saying like it is what it is i think i like them all honestly i mean i do agree that there's there's some uh there's some good stuff on both sides of the fence i didn't need you didn't need to answer i was just leaving it there open oh oh man but i appreciate you taking a crack at it how do we end this year what do we say what do we do before we hit stop well we did drop some major news and the only time we talked about it was with gerhard loosely right should we talk about that at all or is there more to say about that well there will be a link in the show notes a new era coming 2025 that's right still percolating you know it's uh this is a dry brine a drive-by it's a dry brine oh i think you called this a drive-by it's like that's not good dry brine dry brines are what they're a work in progress well they take some time it's a whip let's call this a whip sure we have some change it's uh it's clear it's clearly unclear but i would say this this is what i said at the end of this one show and i said just just said just trust us trust us to have the best interests of all the reasons you've shared your voicemails all the reasons you've hung out in zulip all the reasons you've listened for a few years for many many years etc have some patience with the process of what we're trying to do we're making some change it's not going to be exactly precise but it's mostly precise intentionally precise if we can and we're trying our best to to move the direction that we want to go that it needs to go and that's really it patience patience grasshopper patience thank you all for calling in thank you all for listening to us and being part of our community if you're not in zulip yet let's fix that bug fix it head to change.com community sign up for free throw in your email address get yourself a zulip invite hop into zulip and uh hang out with us but other than that we're gonna take the next couple weeks off we're going to be with our families we're going to be chillaxing and we are going to be preparing for 2025 what will it hold we don't know exactly but trust us young grasshopper anything else the remixes thank you bmc for the the extra attention so good so gold so gold yeah that should be the better so good the new so good is so gold so gold so gold like that zelda cartridge preach so gold so gold yeah thank you bmc for those beats and for just the remixes and making this show a little more special a little more special thank you bye friends bye friends we'll see you in the new year all right that is it 2024 is in the bag can you believe it if you have ideas requests or anything at all you'd like to say hop in our zulip and sound off on the discussion thread for this episode we absolutely love hearing from you thanks one last time for listening to our shows this year we literally wouldn't be able to keep putting out new stuff if you all weren't listening so thanks and a huge thanks to everyone on our team and in the changelog community for everything you do you know who you are but still i'll name a few names bmc of course our editors brian and jason alexandru on transcripts gearhart of course our friends and panelists on js party go time practical ai ship it all of our pods y'all are awesome to our wives rachel and heather thank you so much and to our sponsors fly.io sentry wix shopify work os retool neon eight sleep and many more awesome companies who support us thank you truly thank you all right that's all for now but let's get together and talk a lot more next year you