Reactions to Apple's new vision

It's already been a big day, but we do have one more thing. Welcome to Changeloggin Friends, a weekly talk show about spatial computing. Thanks to our partners for helping us bring you great developer pods each and every week. Check them out at fasci .com, fly .io, and typesense .org. Okay, let's talk. So we are here joined by Mike McQuade with Homebrew. What's up, Mike? Hey, I'm going good, thank you. Thanks for having me on, guys. It's been a while. It has been too long, which is why we're so happy to have this new format where we can just invite old friends on and talk to them. Yeah, no, it's nice to come here. It's good timing as well with WWDC recently, lots of interesting spicy things to talk about. We were joking in the Homebrew maintainer slack yesterday about how it's generally our time of year to be like, what is Apple gonna break this time that we have to desperately try and fix in the next three months before everyone complains? Right, right. Well, you probably don't find that out on Monday, though, so the keynote goes out, but that's like the big consumer retail news, but the developer news kind of trickles out throughout the week. Isn't that the case usually? Yeah, but also, I think they've landed one of the developer betas for macOS Sonoma already. So we actually, one of our maintainers fixed some stuff and made a release yesterday so that Sonoma could work. Sonoma could work at a very high level, i .e. not immediately fail on startup when you run Homebrew. You're not declaring full support, but you probably think it's gonna work, yeah. What are some of the things they tend to break when it comes to new OSs? I mean, you had the major change from obviously Intel to M1 or M2 or just the Apple Silicon world that had to move where Homebrew actually lives in the file system. What typically breaks? I mean, it could be any number of the things we rely on, really. Like we use the macOS Sandbox, so sometimes when they change stuff there, then we need to work around things. It's sometimes like API calls or Apple will tend to, as well, make the really big changes they wanna make with Xcode and map those to macOS versions, as well. So it might be the compiler all of a sudden starts doing slightly different things or giving slightly different output. It might be that they have deprecated the system Ruby and then finally they're actually removing it or all these types of little things that you often have a bit of advanced warning for, but require work. Yeah, right. Why the mood from slash user local to slash opt? This was an Apple Silicon thing, but I don't, and I had to do it on an install, but I don't know, was there like, did they push you guys out of user local or was it easier to have two installed at the same time? What was that change about? Yeah, it's interesting, because we sort of debated a few different approaches around that, because there's been some people for, like literally since day, well, not literally day one, but probably not far off day one, probably literally since day 30 or 100 or something in Homebrew, who hate that Homebrew isn't user local, because they're like, that's not what it's for, other stuff uses it too, you just kind of jank it up with stuff, and so there's been that sort of like gentle pressure for a while that like, this is not the best place to put Homebrew, maybe you should go somewhere else. But then I think the big one for us was when they released the first M1s, you had Rosetta, which could run old Homebrew very well. If you were happy on your Mac, just running x86 codes, well, x86 -64 to be pedantic, and you were fine with all that, and you wanted to buy an M1 Mac, and just keep doing things that way, say like, you know, you're just using it to run CLI tools, like you're not using it to like, generate code that needs to be embedded in an application of a particular architecture or whatever, then yeah, you could just continue to use user local then, and well before we had decent ARM support, that continued to work for you. But all our binary packages, well, most of them, require you to be in a particular location on disk, so if we built the binary package for user local, you can't randomly install your Homebrew somewhere else, and have that binary package work. So we were like, well, we have these kind of three problems of A, we don't have binary packages for ARM yet at all, B, some of the big stuff that we really need to make a lot of binary packages, like in the, I think it was a pretty long time before we had Java working at all, and like lots of stuff relies on Java, so if you don't have any Java support, then you can't do a lot of things. And then see this kind of desire to be able to actually run two Homebrews side by side, so you could have the ARM stuff, maybe if you're building stuff locally that you kind of care about, but you could have a separate Homebrew installation that lives away by itself, that you can install everything, and that all works. And to be able to, as well, like for us developing, to be able to kind of have some sort of migration path between the two and stuff like that. So that's what sort of ended up with the two separate locations, and it's worked pretty well from that perspective there, I think. And I think literally the only downside, really, other than just, you know, I still occasionally get confused as to why I go to user -local and all my Homebrew stuff's not there, and I'm like, oh wait, no, no, I moved that. But yeah, the other minor one is like that some tools don't have user -local almost like built into their default kind of search paths, but I guess like Homebrew's big enough and established enough now that like Homebrew, in a lot of cases, has just got added to those default search paths for these other tools where when it was originally created, like that wasn't guaranteed that that was ever gonna happen, so. Some of their installers have been using the home directory, so like ASDF will have like a hidden ASDF folder, a lot of tools now that are installing things. Did you guys consider that versus slash opt as just like make it user -local to their home directory? Yeah, so that gets you back to that binary package problem I mentioned earlier. I guess what we could do is we could do that and mandate that everyone uses the same username, which sounds like an amazing joke, but that's actually what we do on Linux. So on Linux, yeah, it's on the home Linux brew because the Linux Homebrew port, which is now all rolled into the main project but was originally called Linux brew, when they started it was kind of from a scientific infrastructure perspective and they found that it was actually quite easy to get system administrators to just create their user and give everyone on the system permissions to that user's home directory more than it was to create some other random directory on disk like under opt or user -local or whatever. So we effectively have like three different locations that are like the Homebrew defaults where binary packages are built depending on what platform and architecture and things you're on. Fun. Indeed. Fun, fun, fun. Well, that's as long as I can go without bringing up the big topic. Yeah, I was like, I wanna go one more layer, but it's sparing the lead, Jared. It's sparing the lead, man. Yeah, let's not do it. So yesterday, as we record this, this is Tuesday morning for us. As we record, yesterday was Apple's WWDC keynote, as everybody pretty much knows at this point. And we were watching it live in our Apple nerds channel as we do and just commenting as we go. And about 80 minutes into that keynote, I posted this all caps message that said, show us the VR thing, I'm getting bored. That's kind of what we've been doing so far. Shortly after that, Apple unveiled this Apple Vision Pro new product, but they never actually did show us the VR thing. They said Apple Vision Pro will introduce us to spatial computing. So in the same way that Mac introduced us to personal computing and iPhone introduced us to mobile computing, Apple Vision Pro will introduce us to spatial computing. They said augmented reality is a profound technology. I believe that augmented reality is a profound technology. And they said it's the first Apple product you look through, not at. It's the first Apple product you look through and not at. I thought that was interesting. They never said VR. They never said metaverse that I heard. They didn't even really bring up video games or maybe I missed that part, but they're talking about augmented reality. I just love your guys's reaction to that. Cause Mike, we were talking about VR in our channel and you have opinions about VR, but this is not pitched as a VR thing. They never said VR. They said augmented reality. They said you look right through it, which is technically not true, but I guess conceptually they want you to have this idea of looking through these goggles and seeing the world, even though you're seeing a digital representation of the world that's right in front of your face. So what do you guys think about that? Yeah, I thought that was interesting as well. I had a similar realization kind of this morning and I think it's, I guess it's like AR is kind of more social and kind of human, I guess, is it was the vibe that they were going for. At least that felt like from their pitch where it's a lot more kind of blended with your existing computing. Whereas AR, sorry, VR, like the thing I kind of love about it, like particularly during periods in which, when I was during COVID lockdowns, when we had a three month old and a two year old tours party training at home, like I find it incredibly relaxing to just shut out the entire world in my VR headset and like go to another place, right? And you have no peripheral vision, you can't see anything else, like you can press a button to get like a really sort of janky sort of AR, where am I in my room just so you don't walk into things sort of view. But like this idea that you're completely put into another space and that was, I guess I felt I was expecting they were gonna go down that route and that feels like the metaverse route and that feels like not at all what they were doing. Like, yeah, I think it's interesting for sure. Yeah, what do you think Adam? Well, the metaverse route really removes the real world. The augmenting obviously keeps it so it's not like escaping reality, it's more like blending realities, which is what augmented reality really is, right? Yeah, yeah, it's not what I was expecting them to do. Even from a safety standpoint, right? Like that you can still see your surroundings, whereas if you've got like the Oculus Rift on or whatever it's called these days, I can't even keep up with the direction of it. I've got Quest. Is that what it's still called or was it the old name? There's the MetaQuest. MetaQuest. MetaQuest Pro. There you go. There's a two and a three, I know the three, they're about 500 bucks, I just hear these things. I've used one, but maybe Mike you have more because you've been purchasing different VR things. The point is though is when you put those on that you can't see the rest of the world, like you can fall over things, you can break an arm, you can break your TV, you can smash things, go ahead Mike, you've done this I'm sure, right? I was gonna say, you guys who are on video, for the benefit of the podcast listeners, I'm pointing to a very slight discoloration of my wall behind me where I think I literally thought I was crowbarring a headcrab or something and just punched my hand straight into my wall. Right. I didn't manage to destroy my VR controller in the process, but yeah, that's definitely a thing and I guess some people can see that as, in some situations that's the appeal and in some situations it's really not. Right. Well we're talking about the positioning really, it's like the positioning not in the metaverse, so it's really about that, it's like not versus, it's more like how do they pitch this when meta is so well known with acquiring Oculus, MetaQuest, et cetera. The whole name shift from Facebook to meta. Was about the metaverse, yeah. Is in of itself about the direction they're going, right. So they didn't say metaverse, they didn't say VR and I had a great pun, a world class pun, thanks to Silicon Valley the TV show because there's a slight spoiler in there, there's an acquisition of a VR company because they have to have this big old hoolicon keynote essentially. Everything falls apart, they had to make a last minute change and they acquired this VR company to make their keynote good. And long story short he says, who out there's excited? I know VR, like that's a world class pun, right. So there was no VR mentioned at all. Augmented reality, even spatial, the word spatial to me is pretty cool because it's like all the design stuff in there was very touchable. They did a great job from a design standpoint. So spatial design, augmented reality, that's the good stuff I think. I think they went the right direction, really. And they have the whole app store and all the apps that came with it whereas meta was really recreating the unknown, right. They were really trying to pioneer the future or what they perceived as the future and it was not appealing because it's not relatable. You have Safari inside this thing, that's kind of cool. You have your apps and that's kind of, you already know what it does and how it works. So you can kind of like pull up your calendar. Yeah, it's familiar. Precisely. Messages there, it's like putting some of your apps that you're used to inside of iOS or macOS right there inside of this thing. I don't honestly know though if I want that as much, like maybe I'm just the guy who's ready to escape sometimes. And I should say like the pitch is augmented but if you notice they have this digital crown which they stole from the watch, right. They put it on the top of these goggles and you crank this crown and it changes the size of what is being presented and you can go like full VR mode it seems like. It's just not what they're talking about. Cause like a lot of their pitch was entertainment and it was like, look at these big movies you can watch right in front of your face but they're like inside this AR but they're also like putting a screen inside of augmented reality but you can crank that screen up to like full size to where there's nothing else to see. So I think they get there, they're just coming at it from a different angle. It reminded me in some ways, it's funny you mentioned the Apple Watch, it reminded me of the Apple Watch keynote as well where I can't remember what I thought at the time when I saw it but I definitely remember being somewhat underwhelmed, right. Because they pitched it as a particular type of device that I didn't care about. Yes, it was a fashion thing. A lot of it was fashion. Yeah, it was fashion, it was apps, it was all this type of stuff. Whereas for me, like I love my like health and fitness measurements, right. And I sent a thing for my Apple Watch today to my wife where it's like my resting heart rate. I had a fever over the weekend and I sent her like a thing and I was like spot when I was sick, right. And you can see my resting heart rate is normal and at the weekend it tanks up and then slowly gets better. And then like there's a weird thing like even today where it's like today's the first day my resting heart rate is kind of back to normal and almost like psychologically being like, oh, like maybe that means I'm better now. Like I might go and do my spin class this week. Like it feels like it's providing almost like metrics data that I might use in like an ops role but on my own body measurements. And that was not pitched at all, right. And it felt like what they were doing yesterday was throwing out like 20 use cases and like 10 of them will be flops, right. 10 of them will, it would just be bad. And one of the ones to me, for example, like reading about the resolution and stuff like that, the idea that I'm gonna do my work on these things like and these kind of floating windows in front of me instead of using monitors for any like meaningful amount of time. I'm not gonna say that that won't happen but they made a big deal about like 4K per eye, right. Put your face right up to your 4K monitor and see how impressive that is, right. If you let the 4K monitor completely fill your peripheral vision, that's not actually a lot of pixels, right. It's a lot of pixels when it is a foot like half a meter away from your face but it's not a lot when it's that close. So we have other VR headsets already that will do that sort of resolution and like people already do not find them sufficiently high resolution enough to do that type of work all the time, right. Like it's gonna be annoying compared to a 4K monitor unless you're in a situation where you need that kind of like, I need to just have like 500 windows all around me that I can kind of turn my neck around and look around and all this type of stuff. But on the flip side, some people thought it was slightly dystopian but maybe I'm enough of a nerd that I thought it was awesome like the idea of like being at your kid's birthday party, right and like putting this thing on and taking a 3D video which you can in then one, two, five, 10, 20 years watch back and put yourself effectively in like an almost like VR fixed viewpoint. 3D. Yeah, I mean, because for me, like I buy the new iPhone every year because I have young children and I want to capture their temporary likenesses in as high resolution as I can because I look back at those memories and like, I love looking back at pictures of my kids. I'm with you Mike on that one for sure because for me, I have the, I think you do too Jared, you have the photos widget placed somewhere in your phone and like every day I'm getting some memory and I'm a iCloud believer because I got my photos in there and they're doing a great job of like reminding me of my life. Now the thing is though, while that's amazing, this is the ultimate new dad camcorder kind of situation. I'm like, this is like remember dad's back in the day? It is. You got the dad with the camcorder who looks like a doofus basically. Yeah. But the memory is captured so you've got that memory and that's, you sort of sacrifice, you know, maybe your ego for the moment but I don't know if I want to wear that. I want the artifact after Mike but I don't want to be the dad wearing this headgear during my kid's birthday. Like I want them to remember me just as much as us remember that memory. Right, so I think this is temporary. The actual video of the guy, you know, like you're not going to be like, hold on, don't move. I'm going to go put these goggles on, you know. Like none of us are going to actually do that unless we're going to be the camcorder dad because we can see the future use of it. I think that's temporary. So like the recording side, that does look dystopian. Like I'm looking at this real world thing through goggles that show me a digital representation of the real world thing. Minority report had that. Yeah, but I think the actual, the playback is what we want. And so that's what we all agree on. And so I think like 3D recording is going to come to the iPhone, right? Like you'll be able to record 3D

on

some other thing and then watch it back on these goggles and get that immersive experience. For now, it's like just a weird place where it's like, it also records. Where's the robot? Put those goggles on a robot that has infinite charge, never dies. I'll let my robot wear that thing on my half and it's fine. Cause like Rosie can do that. That's the name of the, I believe it was the name of the robot in the Jetsons, right? Like Rosie, I believe. Oh yeah, Rosie. So give me a Rosie. I want a Rosie.

Is there any girl out there who can resist the charms of a solar powered alloy chassis with turbo

driven schematics and LED eyes? A robotic maid named Rosie changed the Jetsons. Well, speaking of infinite charge, I mean, there's so many indicators that this device is just not, I mean the price of course, but like the device is not going to be ready for regular consumer usage when it ships. It's going to be for enthusiasts, developers, business people, and that's about it. The ultra wealthy? Yeah, ultra wealthy, of course. But they just buy everything, don't they? So everything's for them if they want it. Two hour charge and you got to have a battery stick in your pocket. I did watch a video this morning, the hands -on, because they let some YouTubers get access yesterday. Yeah, I think O 'Malley had a hands -on with it as well. I didn't catch that though. Who'd you see? This is Sara Dietschy, I think, rhymes with Peachy. She saw it and she wore it, a YouTuber. And she said.

There is a reason why the battery pack is not on the headset because the headset is heavy. It is very heavy. I think a lot of initial reports said, oh, we're going to put the battery pack. So it's going to be lighter than a Quest, lighter than, you know, any headset out there. They did that because it would just be too heavy if the battery pack was on the headset. So with that out of the way, that it is heavy, it will be uncomfortable on your face for probably more than an hour.

So that was kind of a bummer to hear, but she did say that the actual 4K display kind of against what you're saying there, Mike, I don't know what's the truth, but she said like, it's spectacular.

The eye tracking is insane. So you do a setup that takes one or two minutes. The digital crown is essentially your home button and you have all of your apps on the home screen and you just look at whatever you want and then you pinch to select. If you're scrolling through photos or Safari, you basically pinch and then scroll. And the clarity of say a Safari tab, you're reading an article is so good. The words are super crisp. And I honestly felt more excited about the productivity elements to it than even the entertainment.

And I think it's like three or four times what a resolution that the MetaQuest currently has. Maybe that's enough, but she's like incredibly impressed with that and was like, this is the future, but it just, it's gonna hurt. And that's kind of where a lot of these things are. I think it depends on the content a lot on this stuff. Like I think for movies and stuff, like I think the resolution doesn't, I mean, you know, like a 4K movie looks great, right? But like when we were watching 1080p stuff, it looks pretty, like, you know, you were watching Lord of the Rings and 1080p being like, oh, I can see the pixels, oh, this one's ruined. Like, I think it's all relative. And I think like video content and like gaming experiences, whatever I think lend themselves to that kind of blend. But I think it feels like reading text on a non retina display now is just like, oh, why would I go through that? Right, and I guess I can't imagine like write code, say like spending a long day, like looking at text for significant periods of time that I would do that in a headset. But Mike, what if you weren't writing the code? What if you weren't writing the code? What if you were - Watching it code. Conjuring the code through voice, an LLM behind it that, you know, knows homebrew through and through. Knows it better than you do. Yeah. All this good stuff. And all you're doing is watching the code, really. Yeah, just get chat GBT to generate the 95 % right, catastrophically wrong code for me. But I guess it's funny. Cause like, you know, again, like on the weight, right? Like I have my nice meaty valve index here. And like, that's more than twice the weight. And like even by default, and I actually bought more weights to add on the back to kind of counterweight the thing. And it makes it feel better. And like when my kids play around with it, like they don't have their necks, like getting crushed forwards by it and stuff like that. And it's funny cause like on the comfort side, I would agree like that, you don't want to be wearing that for hours and hours and hours. But like, it's interesting to me to see for, I guess a mass market appeal that something like dramatically lighter, it's still like too heavy, wouldn't be comfortable. Exactly. I kind of wonder whether that's just something where, I don't know, like Apple are good at making things smaller and lighter, right? But like at the end of the day, like wearing something reasonably heavy on your heads, like even like a big pair of headphones, like some people would just find a big pair of over the year cans uncomfortable to wear for a few hours. And you're not going to get like a vision thing with built in headphones that's going to be lighter than a pair of cans. I imagine down the road, you know, you're probably looking at something similar to what Adam's wearing right now, which is like thick rimmed glasses and all the tech can fit into those glasses. You know, kind of what the Google Glass wanted to be. And so at that point, like you could, and depending on battery life and stuff, you could just wear these things all day long. It goes back again to the VR AR distinction because you don't want to augment your reality for just like, you know, 45 minutes. It's like wearing your Apple watch for half the day. You're like, I'm missing out on the other half of the day's steps. But to escape reality, right? To have a VR moment, to watch a movie for two hours or to play a game for an hour. I know some people play games for hours upon hours upon hours, but that seems more feasible, even for like the heavy headsets that you've been buying, Mike. Like I'll put up with it. But for, you know, 18 hours, it's going to have to be lighter and smaller. And yeah, like you said, Apple's good at these things over time. We'll see if it gets there. Yeah. Did you see the movie Ready Player One, Mike? I didn't actually. I've had a bunch of people, particularly in the VR space, who've said, oh, I basically haven't seen any good films since my kids were born, really. I wouldn't call it a good film. It's a great film, but not a good film. Is good better than great? I don't know. Hold on, let's stop. It's not good, but it's great, please. Tell us more. Well, you got Robert Zemeckis behind it, pop culture references galore, which is always, that's a classic right out the gate, you know? I see. It opens up with a quintessential rock song from, I believe, the 80s. I can't remember the name of it in this moment, but did you see it, Jared? No, but you talk about it a lot, so I feel like I know something about it. Right. Well, I'm not going to talk about the movie necessarily, but more or less reference it, because this Vision Pro looks almost identical to the film, and there's even, during those cut scenes and montages and demonstrations they showed, there's even this one where the person holds them out and then puts them on, and that camera sort of swoops around, and you see through them. That is literally shot for shot, angle for angle, from Ready Player One. So they stole that, or it was an homage? It could be an homage. They could have licensed it, I don't know. I'd love to know the legalities there, but it was exactly like Ready Player One. And Ready Player One is all about escaping, but it's not what Apple went. But the point I'm trying to make is, if you've seen that film, these goggles, Vision Pro, look almost shape -wise identical, and you can see through them, so there's a lot of inspiration. You've got, what was the thing called from Star Trek? I'm not a Star Trek fan, unfortunately. That was the iPhone. Yeah, the tricorder, tricorder. So that predated the iPhone. So there's science fiction meets future reality. So at some point, we dream about it, and then they're like, well, that's actually really possible if we do this, this, and this, digital crown that, speakers here. And on our iPhones today, we have all those cameras in the front to do face ID and whatnot. They've already got a lot of the tech in place. I don't know if it's, what's the material of this thing? Is it aluminum, like the rest of their gear? According to them, a singular piece of three -dimensionally formed laminated glass flows into an aluminum alloy frame that curves to wrap around your face. Aluminum, aluminum, go ahead. Aluminum, indeed. Yeah, so like, I was gonna say, I think that's the interesting thing about it as well, because I think the other thing that may help bring the price down is right now, that thing has so many fricking sensors on it, right? Like it's got like, I think it's like 15 cameras, it's got the iris reader on the inside, it's got that screen on the outside to like show you the eyes of the person inside, because - The creepiest part. You need to see that. Yeah, like it's got all this stuff. Like when you're Apple size, right, you can build loads of things, throw them at the wall, right, and see what sticks. I don't think that's a bad thing either. I'm not criticizing that. Mike's dog, Lucy, makes a cameo here shortly. Don't worry, she only sticks around for a minute or so. And her second cameo near the end of the show is totally on point. I'm not criticizing that. I'm jealous because I'm co -founding a startup nowadays where we have the exact opposite problem of like grand visions and - Lack of resources. Yeah, and right now, like 1 .4 people to actually build them. But yeah, like it's interesting, and it wouldn't surprise me if that's what ends up bringing the price down is that they can have the non -pro edition or whatever, just doesn't have the screen on the front, right? Turns out no one cared about that. And even though like, you know, we've been talking a lot about the AR, VR thing, and arguably this is a device where there's been a few devices in the past in this kind of space I would say all of them are primarily VR or primarily AR, and this is the one that does seem to be, like it is being described as an AR device, but it's definitely one that seems equally competent at both, right? I think it was the Microsoft HoloLens. I never actually used one in person, but that was a lot more of an AR thing. Like the Valve Index I've got here, it has two like basically black and white cameras on it for doing really limited AR of like, you know, am I gonna step into a wall without, like it does like when I get too near to a wall, it shows like a green out sort of matrix style outline of like what I'm near or whatever. So I can kind of see and step out the way and all this type of stuff. They could have gone, right, that sticks some really high end cameras in here. I make an amazing AR device and build amazing AR games, but they decided to not do that. They decided to go the VR direction. So it does make me wonder whether if Apple decides to go full AR, they could probably throw away a bunch of the kind of VR side of things and make something that might look a bit better. Cause that's the other reason why they're ski goggles and not glasses, right? Is if you want to do VR and you want to have that level of immersion, you have to be able to block out all of the light. Everything else. Exactly. But then on the AR side, if you want to do that, you're going to have to have a lot more high end cameras and you have to be able to maybe do some of the kind of eye tracking stuff and things like that. I guess that was another interesting thing we've not mentioned as well. It's like, there's no controllers. That's another distinction between all of the VR kit. It's just all like hand gestures, eye gestures, all this type of stuff, as opposed to these like physical controllers and stuff like that. And that's going to be another thing that it's going to be interesting to see how well that goes, right? Yeah. They didn't show us how you calibrate it. Like with face ID, you got to do that weird head motion to teach the thing. It's your face from all angles. So they didn't show any of that calibration stuff. So it was probably like - So Sara Dietschy said there's like one or two minutes set up. Okay. It's like a two minute eye calibration. She said the eye tracking is spectacular. Like you look at the thing and it focuses the context. Like if you look on this Safari tab, it's going to switch tabs. And she says it works pretty much the way you'd expect it to work very, very well. She didn't talk about the hand gestures to me because there's like downward facing cameras that are like looking at your hands. And as you, you know, you pinch and stuff with your hands, just the air and that's the other aspect. So it's eyes and finger motions, which to me kind of looks like the person in the demo in the video is like having a mini seizure, you know, as they sit on their couch and their hands are like shaking in weird ways. But I guess we do all kinds of weird things, you know, like talking to the air with our AirPods in our heads. I guess the idea that you can use one of your existing input devices as well. You can use your keyboard or mouse on your Mac or your game controller or whatever, but like, I mean, it's definitely, again, in comparison to like the actual hardware I have, like the Valve Index has kind of some of the kind of better controllers and like they have these ones that you put your hands inside and then it has finger tracking. So when I do like this, I can see in a game, say like my fingers move around because it knows where my fingers are all relative to the controller, but I'm not having to actually like hold the thing. It's like sort of attached in this weird, if anyone's on the podcast, you can go and look that up. You can see how your hand sort of fits in sort of like a glove. And again, it's the thing where, I guess, moving on to kind of gaming stuff as well, they had a slide about gaming where I think they showed up some of their 11 kind of launch games, but I don't know, I love Apple and I love games, but I think for like people who would describe themselves like as a gamer and play like AAA big budget games, like Apple's not a meaningful gaming platform, right? It's like something where, you know, if you're someone who plays a game for a couple of hours every year, you can get enough stuff that you could play a game on your Mac or whatever, like that's fine. But if you want to do like serious gaming on your Mac, like you're in for a pretty sad time. And like in some ways like that, here are our launch titles, like these kind of 11 things, like the fact that you can fit them on a slide is, like it's very Apple, like in a good and a bad way, right? Because it shows like we've carefully selected these like 11 beautiful representations or whatever. One of the games is one that I have played in VR. I guess it's almost like being like our drinks menu in our restaurant has 11 drinks on it, right? Across all alcoholic and non -alcoholic drinks, we've selected 11 of the nicest drinks. And I said, well, I don't like any of those. Well, okay, don't come to our restaurant. Go to the one next door where the drinks menu has 200 instead, and that's the sort of Apple take it or leave it sort of way that like, to me shows that they're not, again, certainly I think a lot of people thought that this was gonna be like primarily a gaming device, and that's very much not what they're doing. Like in some ways I find it interesting that they had any mention of gaming at all, because it seems to be so not what they're going for. Let's fill up the script a little bit though. Let's not look at it from a I've got a Valve index and I kind of know some things like you do. Think of it from a game developer standpoint. What do you think game developers are thinking about this? Like if you're in that space and you can make things for brand new, I mean, we have to recognize this is sort of a brand new world, a brand new computing platform. What do you think game developers are thinking? While there may only be 12 in this launch and you gotta start somewhere. 11, sorry, I was going for the baker's dozen. Actually, that's 13, sorry about that. Either way, I want more. What do you think, Mike, what do you think the game developers are thinking? What do you think about this paradigm? Is something like you could do some really interesting things with it, not in the typical gaming way, potentially even, what do you think they're thinking about? I'm friends with some game developers, but I've never worked in that space. But I think the interesting thing there is, even PC VR gaming, the long running joke about it has been it's kind of a niche within a niche. Because I have for reasons due to not wanting to reward scalpers and all this type of thing, I have like a one and a half K dollars -ish graphics card in my machine that sounds like a small jet engine in my house, it's ludicrously overpowered. And I have, as I said, all my VR setup that required me to physically drill things into my walls to mount my VR stations. I guess the point I'm making is like. You went pretty far. It's taking it pretty far, right? Right, enthusiast. But even all of this stuff, you're probably talking less than half the price of the vision, right? So I think that's the thing. I think if you're targeting it as a game developer, you would need to be targeting either multiple platforms, in which case you're somewhat limited in being able to do really intriguing things just for the vision alone. Or you're targeting it thinking this is gonna become a mass market device when they bring the cost down or whatever it may be. Or you're doing it as some interesting proof of concept that kind of buys into another platform or whatever. But I'm actually how it is right now where it's like. Say like Sony has announced the PS6 or whatever and they're gonna release in 2024 and it's gonna cost you $3 ,500 and you can only buy it in North America. People would probably not be rushing out to build stuff for that and really excited about that. And that's the opposite of the direction that console gaming seems to have gone where it's more and more commodity hardware. It's more and more like kind of incremental changes and not these kind of big bang revolutions and stuff. Massive paradigm shifts, yeah. I think the potential is huge. Like I think like you could do some really, really interesting things. I think particularly with the kind of the VR AR blend there that I've looked for a long time for games that we use the even very limited AR kind of functionality in my VR headset, just because I think it's sort of an intriguing idea to sort of like combine those two spaces. But I don't know, it just seems like it's so expensive right now that it would be hard to see that. I guess the thing I could maybe see like rather than games is like for high -end training or whatever, like flight simulation or the type of thing where basically almost like conference tickets, right? Where the idea like of again, now that I'm actually like a co -founder somewhere, you notice the fact that like, oh, this conference costs like two or $3 ,000. That's actually quite a lot of money when I can't get my employer to pay for it for me, right? Like I'm probably not gonna pull out my credit card and spend the price of like a family vacation on going to a conference. For sure. And I feel it could be the same in reverse here, right? Where am I as a gamer gonna like buy one because some launch title looks really great? Like, no. But like if my employer can get more than 3 .5 Ks worth of value out of it, and it's dramatically better than some of the alternatives there, then yeah, I wouldn't imagine that would be particularly hard for people to justify. Like if you could kind of tap into that sort of market, I guess, like high -end training for whatever. Yeah. Such a small, well, maybe not a small market, but such a specific market where like you almost have highly specialized devices where Apple is not known to be open API. They're not known to be not literally open APIs and the open API, you get what I'm trying to say. You know, that you can program for it, but you don't have full access like you do even on a Mac. Like you have a lot more access to the system, you know, in iOS devices, tvOS, et cetera, iPadOS, and now VisionOS. I gotta imagine like these highly specialized things require certain APIs that you may not have access to, you know, and you're gonna spend a lot of money to get into that ecosystem, and you sort of have to follow where Apple may allow you to go because they're in control of the keys, the kingdom. So specialized, that's highly specialized spot for sure. Well, I did think like when Mike, you held up that controller, like that thing screams video games, right? Like just like you have buttons, you have D -pads, you have joysticks, et cetera. And the fact that there is nothing like that, it's such a more of an iPhone kind of a thing, right? Like it's an Apple thing to be like, well, we're gonna have cool new games that you're gonna use your fingers to, you know, manipulate the air and play. And it's like, that's gonna create a certain type of game. Just like the iPhone, you know, the single pane of glass created a certain kind of game that was different than other kinds of games. And I feel like they had a huge opportunity. They had so much interest and still do of just people using these things to create a gaming platform that just blew everything else out of the water. And they just did, kind of what they did to the podcast for many years was just ignore it, you know? They just let it go. They didn't provide the developers what they need to really have a different monetization option. So everything went in -app purchase, everything went candy crush and ended up being like these very shallow, addictive, but ultimately, I guess, unsatisfying games that ended up ruling the iOS platform. And it's probably similar, I would guess, that eventually would rule this thing unless they actually get dedicated to it early in order to provide developers, game developers, what they need to make better games. And I just don't see Apple ever, like you said, Mike, I just don't think they care about it that much. They're gonna have their 11 games. They'll all be beautiful and very handpicked. But ultimately, you're like, well, I get bored of 11. In fact, I only like three of the 11 and now what are we gonna do? Hello, friends. This is Jared here to tell you about Changelog++. Over the years, many of our most diehard listeners have asked us for ways they can support our work here at Changelog. We didn't have an answer for them for a long time, but finally, we created Changelog++, a membership you can join to directly support our work. As a thank you, we save you some time with an ad -free feed, sprinkle in bonuses like extended episodes, and give you first access to the new stuff we dream up. Learn all about it at changelog .com slash plus plus. You'll also find the link in your chapter data and show notes. Once again, that's changelog .com slash plus plus. Check it out. We'd love to have you with us. Let me give you a scenario. You're in the doctor's office, right? You're there waiting for your next turn, right? You're just there for a random checkup. You're good to go. Okay. And somewhere in the room, now you currently have an iPhone talker. Somebody's on the phone talking super loud in a waiting room. It's just like a non -social norm, right? Now flip the script and say, okay, now affordable years down the road, whatever, even today, whenever this thing's available, somebody's sitting next to you with this Vision Pro on their face, and you can kind of see their eyes or whatever. You can just, maybe you hear nothing from them because maybe, I don't even know, I don't know if it makes sound. If it's just for you or if it's for everybody else, they can hear it. But just imagine them going to town on a, on like whatever it could be. It could be Candy Crush. They could be like, they could be safariing. They could be photoing. They could be doing whatever they want. Just imagine that scenario. You see somebody sitting across you with this Vision Pro on their face in a social setting, which is totally possible. Fully immersed in Tetris, yeah. What are you thinking? Obviously, I'd steal their wallet, wouldn't you? That's the move? For sure. They wouldn't have anything in it because they've bought an Apple VR headset. That's right, they're broke. You gotta steal the goggles if you're gonna steal anything of value. I don't know, it's funny because with a lot of the VR stuff, you've seen some of those transitions for games as well. I've seen this with my kids as well. Fruit Ninja, the iPhone game, they have a VR version that my five -year -old really likes where you physically have two actual swords that you use to cut fruit coming through the air and stuff. I think that's the fascinating paradox with VR stuff is that you don't need instructions or tutorials for most games because it's immediately obvious. You can put someone who's not even a gamer in and within seconds they know because it's what you're doing in the space and whatever. But on the flip side, you have this problem which a small minority of people have with existing games. I had a flatmate at university college who couldn't play first -person shooters because they made him motion sick. I'd be like, you're just making that up. That's not true. I saw him and I was like, oh, that's actually a thing. But with VR, that affects a lot more people in a lot, some people just can't really handle VR games. It's certainly VR where you have motion and stuff like that. If you're sitting in a moving car in VR, I played a lot of VR. I don't get motion sick in real life and stuff like that, but that will make me motion sick and I need to stop. And some of that is programming. Some of that is just essential, how your brain works. It's tricky because I think that's the other thing that could stop this going, for gaming at least, going super duper mainstream. It's like, you just can't necessarily build something that everyone's brain and vision system and stuff like that can handle. I guess one of my biggest fears though of all of this is that whenever Apple releases some big visionary product like this, I think of, do you guys remember the legendary like Slashdot comment from Commander Taco, 2001, about the iPod, no wireless, less space than a nomad, lame. Lame. Right, yes. He still isn't living it down. Exactly, I

can

just imagine everything we've said in this conversation today brought up in five or 10 years where everyone's just wearing their goggles 24 seven and we're just like, you guys are such fools. You knew nothing of what would come and how we'd all embrace our Apple goggles. The lore inside could be enough at some point, but I just come back to current, I don't know, would you call it user experience to be how you wear it? I think it's more like inside the thing. It's more like just experience, generally. It's a headset. Who wants to wear a headset for several hours at a time? I bet when he wear headphones and I'm up, you do, Mike? Mike does it. Gosh. He's playing his games. So like, again, I'm with you to an extent, I would put on the headset and I've played the VR games. I feel like an old person right now, I've played the VR. I love, I've had a lot of fun, even with groups, cause like you're watching the person, they're acting a fool and you can get them to cast up onto a TV, so you're kind of seeing what they're seeing. It's not exactly the same, but you're actually there with them, and it's a riot, like it's not isolationist. Like it can be a communal experience, which is really cool, but that's for a constrained time period. And I'm not going to wear anything for all day long on my face. Even that, like the thing that makes it social is the fact that the person in VR, who's actually getting to play right now when everyone else is not able to play, looks like a massive dork, right? Like that is the bonding experience is like, you're having the time of your life and you look like a loser while you're doing it, right? It's hard to see that almost like mapping to like a fortune 500 boardroom, you know? Well, maybe it will, you know, let the boss use it for a while. You can all laugh at the boss, you know, while they're doing their thing. Yeah. Here's Jared coming in on their Vision Pro. Hey Jared, how you doing? And they're augmented basically. Speaking of that, they have this FaceTime feature. Like how does that work? Because you can FaceTime inside of the Vision Pro, but if I'm on the other side of that call with you, right? I'm seeing what? Because you have goggles on. Am I seeing just your eyes? You're seeing Zuck. You're seeing Zuckerberg, man. It's the persona thing, right? Like they had, it's like this - So that's more metaverse. Yeah, it's almost like this little like fuzzy avatar thing. I think they had a little bit of that during the demo. I didn't - Okay, I might've missed that part, yeah. Yeah. Seems not ideal, but you know, again, we are seeing what we've seen yesterday, but this is gonna be a product that iterates. Apple is so good at just relentless iteration, just year after year, small incremental changes that after five, 10 years, it's amazing. I mean, the iPhone 4 and 5, those models compared to the original iPhone, it's absolutely astonishing how much progress they made in half a decade. Yeah, if you have the original iPhone or the 3, 4, 5, and now what, the 14, you see the progress in the iteration. And I think that Apple's the kind of company that would not get into the ring unless they can do some damage, essentially. They can do something with the platform. And even if it's a niche for a while, that's probably okay for them because that's why it's priced so high. So they can go down from here. You can't go up. If you came out at like 5 .99 and 8 .99, maybe that's a harder selling point for them. They're not gonna get in the ring unless they can do something. That's for sure. That's the kind of company they are. So they've definitely made everybody pay attention to spatial design, augmented, and if not VR, then augmented reality, AR. Something that Box founder Aaron Levy said, and this just sort of like kind of goes back to some things you said, Jared, about Sara Dietschy. He says, just got to try the Apple Vision. Definitely wild. Hand and eye tracking is basically perfect. Instantly understandable UX. The graphics are incredible and the setup was seconds. So that gives you like a good base. Like even wherever it could go, it's got an incredible easy setup. It's not kludgy. It's not hard. So all the things you can improve on it over time will only get better. The weight, the size, whatever it might be. Maybe they introduced controllers next year. Hey, now we have these controllers making, now you're happy. And by the way, we can give you like these coin -sized, just slap them on your wall sensors rather than having to drill. You just tape it and it's there and it's infinitely powered by, I don't know, gravity or something like that, you know? So you've got, you know, in a year's time, maybe you can have, or a couple of years time, you can have brand new paradigm shifts in this platform that make it far more appealing. I think that's interesting. I guess the thing is I keep forgetting this myself because I get so overexcited, but you know, my wife has seen me phone over enough Apple product launches that she was like, yeah, but didn't you always say that you shouldn't buy the first generation of new Apple stuff because the second release is always like, fixes all the really big problems. And I was like, yeah, yeah, you're right. Like that for me is like that combined with the price. I think Apple are, again, really lucky with their customer base because a ton of people are gonna go out and buy this, right? And give them really great feedback on what the second iteration of the device should be. And when they do make a device that's half the price, a third of the price, whatever, like what the mass market needs that device to be. The other thing that occurred to me while you were talking, Adam, is just like, just the demo they did yesterday. I mean, they're so good at like these types of demos. It's kind of absurd. Like, and when you look at the headstart that Meta has had here, I'm like, I mean, basically Meta have been like gaming and this weird second life Metaverse thing that like everyone just like literally laughs at, right? Whereas Apple, before they were even ready to show the headset to anyone, they have like 20 integrations, right? Like in the demo and they've got a bunch of launch partners on board and they've got Disney on board. And like, you know, they're just, I mean, obviously it's an early product, but it's an early Apple product. And like the level of polish, I've seen various memes today about like, how Zuck must be feeling

after

that keynote yesterday. But like, yeah, I mean, it's - I'd be excited if I were him. It's not good, right? If you're a company that's like betting on the Metaverse and someone who's not even in this space comes along and like does this, like it reminds me of when the iPhone came out, right? I know the phone companies were like, I literally remember speaking to a high level Nokia executive about six months after the iPhone came out. And they said, we're not worried. They're not a phone company. Like, and I say, well, now you're not a phone company. Right, right. You know, and it makes me wonder whether we could say the same sort of thing with like VR and Metaverse and AR and whatever, where it's like, you just didn't deliver a good enough product and someone else has taken their time, delivered something good and your lunch could well be stolen. Yeah. Well, what's interesting about this time around is that Apple has announced and shown their cards, but there's no presale, there's no, you know, get it here. It's a year away. I mean, they're saying it's next year. That's a long time's period. I remember the first iPhone, I think it was six months, announced in January, shipped at the end of June, something like that. I think the Apple Watch was maybe another six months, maybe three quarters of a year. I can't remember exactly that. Yeah, good point. I go to North America as well. Yeah, and you know, prohibitively expensive for consumers. So three things that they don't normally do, they're definitely changing their playbook slightly. I wonder why they felt like they had to get it out there a year before they're actually ready to ship. It was a pressure from something that, I know that the rumor mill had been, you know, swirling for years. They said that they'd been building the technology for a decade, but I think I heard they've been, they've actually had a dedicated team earnestly working on this for seven years. So, I mean, that's a long time to work without ever shipping something. Maybe it was like, you know, we gotta ship something. They're still not shipping, but at least they're showing. It's interesting to think about. Why now? Well, one thing Insider did say, a headline at least, that we can potentially agree on is, Apple sure kicked Metta's butt today, right? That's their headline? That's their headline. And they say, Apple finally released its new headset Monday. It sure seems a lot better than Metta's headset if the marketing is to be believed, but does anybody really wanna put something on their face like this? And Mike, you raise your hand, you say yeah, so I guess the answer's yeah. If I were Zuck though, I'd be like, you know what, I'm a little worried, because they're good at hardware, they're being Apple, but at the same time, it's like, here's part of the fang mafia, basically, throwing their product into the ring to say let's go to battle. It just deepens the pot, really. It's gonna be the future of something. Who wins? Doesn't really matter. I mean, will Apple take over the entire market share? I don't know, Android's still out there. There's still tons of Android users, just because Apple's out there kicking butt and taking Metta names doesn't mean that Metta can't still find a way to make their own place, and maybe they're focused on immersive, true VR, which is quite different than this, but if Apple gets this right in this augmented space, like you said before, Mike, it's not a far stone's throw to get into the VR space, too. If they conquer this and rule this, they could have two products, Vision Pro and Vision VR. They can divide the market. It is interesting, they shipped with a Pro in the whole concept. They're announcing the Vision Pro, and normally you announce a product and then you come out with the Pro line. I mean, that's been their style. But maybe they're just like, this thing's so expensive, we gotta call it the Pro. I don't know. That could be it, Jared. That's how I read it. I also just like what I was saying earlier about the number of sensors and the amount of functionality this device has is unnecessary for some of the use cases. I actually really wouldn't be surprised if you end up essentially with the Pro, this is why they don't let me work in branding, whether you have something like a Vision AR, a Vision VR, and then the Vision Pro could kind of do both of those things, right, and has essentially all of the sensors and all of the chips for both devices. And instead, the other two devices are like a third of the cost. Yeah. What about the Vision Pro Max? When are they gonna come out with that? That's just if you've got a really big head. Yeah. Well, I guess somewhat sliding into that concept, people wear glasses, and so this is something. What about Adam? He's got glasses. Are those just for fashion, or are those actually corrective? These are corrective and fashion. Okay, so you got corrective lenses on over there, and the thing's expensive as is, but they have a solution for glasses wearers. They partner with some sort of a lens company. Zeiss. I didn't pay close attention, Zeiss, okay. The most well -known lens maker in the world. Okay, of course Apple would do that. You can buy lenses for your goggles, or they fit them perfectly. I don't know exactly how it works, but so if you have bad vision, you're paying even more, right? You gotta have the corrective lenses added to your goggles, so that's interesting. Yeah, and this one doesn't work with old versions, so now you gotta get new lenses, and you're trying to sell your exact prescription on eBay. Trying to hawk it. What a world, right? What a world. And you can't swap lenses, because they've been sealed into the thing, because that's the way Apple does it. Where are we all most excited? I've got to most excited myself where I would put down some dollars for this. Not at this price point, but I would put out, and maybe, I don't know. It would be to combine this kind of thing with what I already have. I was saying in our Apple merch tab, by the way, you heard Jared mention at the top of the show, we have a Slack. You can join it, changelaw .com slash community. It's totally free. Hang with Mike, me, Jared, and many others whenever WWDC happens and other things. But I would combine Vision Pro with an existing home theater setup. So if I could take, I mean, and maybe you already have your screen and that's super cool, but if this thing is to be believed and it is that cool and I can immerse myself, imagine if I can watch a movie as if I'm hovering over the earth, right? The augmented reality around me, my reality is sort of like, is there still yet to some degree if somebody walks in? But I'm hovering above the earth or I'm kind of hanging out in the universe and I've got this just massive screen in front of me and I've got a banging sound system around me, literally there. So I don't have to listen on headphones or whatever the Vision Pro offers in terms of audibility. I can use existing high -end, super awesome audio and this thing to just make the experience different. That might be something that's pretty cool. It is still a niche because I mean, how many people have banging home theaters? Not many people, but they are people who shell out lots of dollars and just to give an example, I bought a 120 -inch screen. This is not a TV, this is just a screen to project onto recently, more than $3 ,000 for this thing. Oh my goodness. Oof. Yeah. $3 ,500, you could have got a Vision Pro. I could have gotten, yeah, I could have gotten a Vision Pro. I could have gotten a Vision Pro, but so you got people like that that are willing to spend that kind of thing. I mean, you could build your own, but it's not as good. I mean, yeah, I won't make excuses for why I justified the expenditure, but I did. You did it. $3 ,500 for this just screen to project onto on the wall. So, I mean, people will pay for experiences. Well, they do, for sure. I mean, for me as well, I'm currently sporting a nice pair of Apple AirPods Max. I actually own, I have AirPods, AirPods Pro, and AirPods Max, and I use them all in different situations. Oh man, you collected them all. But yeah, the Max, they're so expensive, and I really weighed it up for a long time, whether I would get them, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna indulge myself. Would you buy them again? Yeah, in a heartbeat. They're absolutely incredible. That's the thing. And I think that's part of the thing that makes me think with Apple on these cases, right, is that the funny thing is for me is the pairing, when you were talking about that, Adam, I kind of want what you want, but almost the opposite, in that I do have a pretty nice surround sound system at home and stuff like that, but whenever I watch TV or movies right now, it's generally when my kids are sleeping, right? And if I watch some war movie or the Game of Thrones finale, I'm quite an audio -influenced person. I'm a sort of pre -children musician, all this type of thing, right? So for me, I love the idea of being able to watch Lord of the Rings or some other big epic battle scene with my AirPods Max on. Over my ears, my vision on my face have this enormous cinema screen, have it absolutely blasting into my ears, and I'm not bothering anyone else, right? Yeah. And I could do that in my house when my kids are sleeping. I could do that on a plane. That was the other case that I could see. If I was doing a lot of business travel, like I had done in the past, I'm not anymore really, but if I was traveling long haul every month or so, people would drop almost half that on really decent noise -canceling headphones, right? So the idea that it's the best possible way to watch a movie on a plane, people would do that, right? Or be able to work on a plane, if you can have all your desktop in front of you. Yeah, it's not as nice as your 4K display, but - Slapping a stewardess accidentally as she walks by because you're pinching and zooming. Oh, I didn't mean to pinch you. Just trying to pinch Safari. That's terrible. I wasn't, I didn't pinch you on purpose. You can get yourself thrown in jail for that. That's right. Actually, the plane is the most compelling moment. Like when would I actually use this? For me, it's none of the real life moments like that they demoed. It's literally like when I see them on a plane and thinking like, what do I want to do when I'm on a plane? I want to just tune out everything around me and have some sort of distraction. And for me, like that epic movie with the spatial audio right there in your ears, it blacks out everything else. I go full VR mode and watch a movie for two hours on a two hour flight. Like that to me, like, I would like to do that. I want to go to there, but that's pretty much it. Everything else. I don't even like to have like, I'm watching a movie on my iPhone, like holding it here. I set it on my leg. I put it on the table in front of me. I'm always like, is this person next to me watching? Actually, I watched Game of Thrones one time on a plane for like a few minutes and it was, it was inappropriate. And I was like, super embarrassed, you know? Cause you have to like tell the person like, no, this is Game of Thrones. This is not soft core, you know? And they're just not going to hear you on that. So I don't like that experience on a plane. I would love to just tune everybody else out and be able to have an escape. Yeah, that's true. This would make it totally private. No one else can see what you're seeing. And yeah, that's exactly where I would want to do that. And I would even say when they get the price point down, if they can just make it about immersive viewing of any sort, maybe not, you know, interacting like a game, but immersive viewing, anybody that has the tiniest apartment would totally drop some dime on this. Cause like, if you can skip buying a TV for 500 bucks, 300 bucks, and fill the rest of it up with, you know, the remaining amount with the expense of buying this and you have immersive viewing, then maybe, and you live alone potentially even, and you only have cats. You know, this is getting more and more niche. But either way, you don't have the ability to install a screen or, you know, it's not really feasible to put a big old TV there or something like that. All it really requires is maybe internet and battery. That to me is interesting. That's the other thing. Like even if it is feasible to get the screen, you know, like we've, I've been historically limited by previous houses and by my lovely spouse on like how big our TV is allowed to be. For sure. And now we're in a place that like, we could have a redonkulous size TV. And once you start to get really big OLED TVs, like you're definitely stepping above the vision pro in terms of a price point, right? They're expensive for sure. Like, so I guess that's another thing is that like, if they can nail the experience such that like, it is actually a cinema -like movie theater -like experience, then yeah, again, maybe that's compelling, right? Like if you're really into watching stuff, like you could have one more nail in the coffin of the current kind of cinema movie theater industry post -COVID. Well, I mean, there's usually only one person maybe who really enjoys the biggest of big TVs. I mean, everyone else will endure it if they have to, but like there's usually one person vying for the biggest experience, the most expensive things. And in my whole household, it's usually me. My wife's like, this size TV is perfectly fine. And I've moved on to projectors and screens versus TVs because I want big. As I mentioned, my screen is 120 inches diagonal. So that's like way bigger than most TVs you could buy at a feasible price. Although I did disclose how much I pay for the screen only. So there's that. Either way, you can drop the dime on this thing because you got one person maybe in the household who's really wanting the more immersive version of it. So maybe you get a typical TV or a common TV for everybody else. And then you get the Vision Pro for the one person who's like, you know what? I want to hover above the earth and watch a film. I love the mental picture of like having like a 20 inch TV that everyone is watching perfectly happy with, except for like Michael Adam, who's just sitting there with a Vision Pro on their face, watching it on like the virtual. With the biggest smile ever. Yeah, the virtual biggest TV in the world. Yeah, all by himself. So there were, believe it or not, there were other things announced at this event. We've been talking about this the whole time. I was gonna say, Jay, we're deep on Vision Pro only. We can stop here or maybe we can hit on a few things. Maybe let's just talk a few highlights from each of us on the other things mentioned, because they are shipping some new hardware, 15 inch MacBook Airs. The Mac Studio gets an upgrade. Mac Pro for the first time with Apple Silicon. By the way, talk about banking. Starting at 69 .99, seven grand starting price on that. So you know that's not the actual price you're gonna pay when you land one of those. As well as iOS 17 updates, a bunch of stuff. iOS, iPad OS 17, new Mac OS. We don't have time to go through everything, but what were some highlights for you guys from this event? Looking forward to things that are actually shipping either right now or soon. So for me, a bizarre one that really stuck out was the family sharing for iCloud Keychain. I'm sad to say that I have fallen out of love with 1Password. I was a 1Password fairly early adopter. I've got all my family using it and all this type of stuff. And I just, in the last year or so, it's felt like it is annoying me more than it helps me and stuff that used to work is not working anymore and whatever. So yeah, it's one of those things where I'm kind of like, if I can use the defaults and if I can use Apple's built -in stuff, I generally try and do that. So for me, the iCloud family sharing of passwords, that's the one thing that was my super hard blocker for being able to potentially move myself and my wife or even my parents over to using iCloud Keychain instead. So yeah, so for me, that's pretty compelling. I'll need to give that an investigation of whether I can migrate over. The issue with 1Password is it's not native and it's never gonna be native. I mean, it's native to the platform. I guess actually it's not now. It's less native now because now they're on Electron. Exactly, it's gonna be always a third -party application, obviously, unless it gets acquired by Apple. The problem for me, Mike, and I wanna believe in that world is that I have things that aren't only in the Apple ecosystem. And so for those reasons, it makes me wanna have a robust, not first -party because I'm not only in the Apple world. And I store other things in there like credit cards and driver's license and just other sensitive information that I would not wanna have to put on the encrypted disk or in a password -protected file with permissions or whatever, that's to some degree more harder to share because I can't share that. So I wanna believe in that. If they can do what they can do, first -party, but also give me actual one -password type of things, store my driver's license in there, store my credit cards in there, share them with my wife and other family members or whatever, that would be, and I guess I kinda do that already with purchase sharing to some degree, like wallet or whatever. If they can kinda make that more in the Apple world, but also let me have things that are non -Apple in there and an actual application to control it, then I'd be in it with ya. So I like the idea of the sharing, but that's why I've never really bought into the Apple first -party ways because I need more than it gives. I've heard this said, I think maybe Jason Snell wrote about it, but what they really need is an actual passwords app, you know, like a first -party, because it's in there, like it's part of the settings. It's super weird. When I have to like show my parents that, yeah, you can just get your passwords out there, like how? I'm like, well, I just swipe down and search for passwords and it's had different names throughout the years, throughout the versions. And so it's really just an unknown feature for so many people. If they had an actual app, just like they have a wallet app, have an app called passwords with all this stuff centralized, I think that would go a long way for people realizing how good their password offerings are, because they have, I mean, you can do one -time passwords, you can do all kinds of stuff inside there, but people just don't know about it, so they should do that. I just used my first passkey today with Home Depot. I actually enabled Home Depot to have a passkey to allow it to use the device, the website, to use either my thumbprint, which I'm not using, or my face ID. So that's first passkey user, literally, yesterday. Yeah, GitHub's passkey support's pretty good, actually. I think they maybe even shipped after I left, but yeah, it works pretty nicely, actually. It's just whenever you would have been prompted for 2FA, you just get prompted for your biometric information that is synced between all your devices using iCloud. If you need to log in on a Windows machine, it can't be your only secondary authentication or whatever, but yeah, it works pretty nicely for another one. And yeah, I think I enabled on my Google account as well, so it will similarly do that instead of prompting for my 2FA codes or spamming my YouTube app on my phone. That is a kludgy experience. It's secure, 2FA with a verify or authenticator, I believe it's called, is secure, but it's not convenient. It's like, oh gosh, let me get this OTP out real quick, and it's just not cool, I gotta remember it. And then if you're in a social setting, you can potentially be phished quickly, because I don't know about you, but I can't remember six characters without somehow saying them out loud, either my brain or literally out loud to myself, I might whisper it like 6 -0 -3 -4 -5 -2. It's like, you know, I gotta do that to some degree to remember that six -digit number. Okay, Jared, what about you? What's something that stood out to you for this one? Find my Apple TV remote already. Come on, people. Finally, they're breezing through the Apple TV portion, and they announced that you can now find your Apple TV remote from your phone when you lose it, which we lose ours constantly, and I've long said they just need to put an AirTag in that thing, just build an AirTag into the Apple TV remote. What's interesting is this just seems like a software upgrade, like they didn't say, and you have to get a new Apple TV remote, or I don't know if it like makes a noise. It was all so fast, I'm sure I could go back and watch it again and see exactly how it works, but somehow I'm sure it makes a noise or it locates. And so, yeah, you got your Apple TV between the couch cushions, or your three -year -old takes it downstairs to the other TV for some reason and leaves it, and you lose it for days upon days. No longer I'm gonna find that sucker. So that, I mean, it's small, but like quality of life improvements, did you guys see how this is gonna work? I didn't see it. All I know is it's like just with a new tvOS, it's gonna work now. It's like, what? Why did you guys wait so long? I thought it was gonna be like the hardware literally didn't exist inside the remote, you know? And so you have to upgrade your remote to get the findable one. I figured they would do that eventually. And this new Apple TV has a findable remote. Is the remote Bluetooth or is it IR? It's Bluetooth. Well, then that means it's already there, right? Like you can just like beak into the Bluetooth with your phone or your network. That's why you have that allow applications to search your network thing. Yeah, but does that give, like how do they know where it's located in the room? Does Bluetooth provide that? Well, that's true, yeah. I guess spatially, true, man. They're tracking my stuff already. If any of y 'all know how they're doing this, holler at us, because I would love to know. But I don't actually care all that much because as long as it works, I can find my remote, life's gonna be good. I'm excited about the completion of the Mac transition to Apple Silicon. That's what I'm excited about. Just being done, I'm sure you are too, Mike. I'm like, no more surprises. Okay, we got some OS surprises once every two years. Let's have no more hardware surprises or any other chip surprises that you can't navigate around. You know what that means, which I knew this day would be coming from basically the day they announced the M1 chip, right? It's like counting down the days until there is a Mac OS release that does not support Intel anymore. You should run a sweepstakes or something for the listeners of like how many more releases do we get after Sonoma before if you're on an Intel chip, you can't upgrade, right? Oh, probably two more, three more maybe, I'd say. Yeah, I think about that sort of ballpark as well. Like I would be surprised if they killed it off like next year or whatever, but like - It'll freeze you to a certain OS, yeah. Are they still selling Intel -based anything? As of this, no. The last one was this Mac Pro. They were still selling it. When did they sell their very last Intel? So as of yesterday or maybe Sunday, they may have sold a Mac Pro that was Intel. With laptops, they've not been selling Intel like MacBooks for two years plus probably now. It was funny how much of the ecosystem had not woken up to this. I definitely saw a few times where some companies ended up with slightly unpleasant situations announcing that, oh, we will support doing this on M1 in a few years. And be like, oh, everyone who buys a new Apple MacBook today cannot run your stuff anymore. Had a slightly faster turnaround once one of their internal developers pointed that out to them. But the M2 Ultra, which I heard in the chat was everyone could say MK Ultra, which is a mind control thing. MK is mind control. Yeah, there's a really good movie. I think it's called Kill Room, if I recall correctly. If you haven't seen that film and you like the idea of MK Ultra and not so much the idea of it, but just storylines around it. What about The Manchurian Candidate? Wasn't that also about MK Ultra, The Manchurian Candidate? Yes, well, I would say Kill Room's better though than that movie. Okay. Yeah, Manchurian Candidate was a really good movie too though. Okay. But just not as good as Kill Room. Pick which one you want. Yeah, watch both, Jared, you know this. Watch this one where you can watch both. That's true, watch them both. M2 Ultra and now I guess PCI expansion. I won't need it myself, but anybody who needs massive amount of NVMe storage, you can get carrier cards, PCI expansion cards, which I think is pretty cool. You can have 30 -some terabytes of NVMe storage. So if you're doing like, I don't know. Right, that's where I fail. I can't even hypothesize what you might be doing, but you have extreme needs, well, there you go then. You can do that with the Mac Pro. I think that's kind of cool that they left it because they could have abandoned it. I mean, not many people need PCI expansion, but when you have a device with a $7 ,000 starting price tag, you should probably keep that, right? Just for the enthusiast. You can get two Vision Pros for that much. I mean, come on.

That's right. Does

anyone else have a least favorite feature that was announced yesterday, one that you're dreading? Oh, good question, good question. Mine was them changing the Hey Siri to being just Siri because I have, maybe it's the Scottish accent, but I have a dog called Lucy and a wife called Lindsay. And when I say either of those things, all of my devices, particularly Lucy, like when I'm angry at my dog for doing something disgusting, I'm like, Lucy! Then like all of my devices are like, oh, like - Oh, I think Lucy heard you. You were asking for me? Like, yeah, they all already think that I'm asking for Siri. So I look forward to - Funny. Every time I say my dog's name, every Apple device spamming me. Yeah, that's a good one. So while you're talking Siri, I should close the loop on my prediction from a few months back. So I went on record when we had Simon Wilson on the show. I think that was LLM's Break the Internet. And I said,

I

think this year's WWDC, which is usually in June, end of May, early June, I think Apple is gonna have an answer to what's all been going on. I think they can't afford to do nothing for much longer. My guess is they're gonna have some sort of either like upgraded Siri or Siri replacement that will be LLM powered. And I think they almost have to at this point. So I think it's coming. I think they're just waiting. I agree that they got some serious constraints around the way it needs to work and how good it has to be in order to keep their brand intact. But I think they're gonna have something to announce. And I have no idea. It just makes sense. And they totally didn't. They did mention transformer powered autocorrect and transformer based dictation inside of the keyboard. Those are like, I was waiting for the large language model keyword and they never use it. They did mention transformers a few times, but Siri didn't get touched except for taking the hay off the front. That was pretty much all they had done there. So Siri still useful. I was wrong. I thought they would step up their game in that way. I'm sad you're wrong, honestly. I really wish they would just make Siri more intelligent. Yeah, Siri is really bad at this point. Like it's kind of embarrassing. Like how - So bad. It's embarrassing. It almost feels like with Siri, like when you compare Siri to something like, I know it's got the voice recognition part as well, but like when you compare Siri to like chat GBT or whatever nowadays, it's like what we were saying earlier about like meta and how Zuck wants to be feeling right now. Like it's just, yeah. Like Siri's, imagine trying to use Siri for like the stuff that you try to use chat GBT for, right? It's embarrassing, right? Like it's a Nokia compared to an iPhone back in whatever it was, 2007. Like it's - They're not a phone company. Yeah. It feels like the tough conflict there is like Apple's approach to AI about being very privacy -focused, very on -device as much as possible. Maybe that just means you can't do AI well, right? Like compared to the like privacy invasive, we're wrong 1 % of the time approach. Like I kind of respect them for that if that's the case, but yeah, I still just wish it was a bit better. It seems like we're moving to a place where Apple's on -device stuff is really gonna pay off. It just, they're just sleeping on it because the ability to take these large models, put them on your device, right? Pre -trained and then fine -tune and do inference on -device just makes, to me, a lot of a sense. In terms of least wow moments, like when I'm gonna go to the bathroom, I don't really care that this was announced, but I honestly don't care that it was announced, was new app, journal. I just went to the bathroom. Oh, that's a bummer. I just don't care about their journal app. I don't journal. I don't want it. I don't need it. It's gonna go into a folder or whatever you call that thing and never be used again. But that's just me. Adam, what about you? Least favorite and then we'll call it a show. Well, I wanna layer on one for you with that. So day one is a pretty well -known, well -designed iOS, macOS native application, I believe. I don't think they're on other platforms. I could be wrong. No, actually it says Android, iPad, and Mac. So maybe they're on Android. I think the journaling is a good thing. I was not excited about it, but it's kinda cool that it might be native, just like freeform. I think for me, I kinda go to sleep anytime iPad's mentioned because I'm not an iPad user and I see some of the things they're doing there and I'm like, that's kinda cool, but every time I see myself wanting to use an iPad, I think it might be consumption, but then I'm like, I got this big phone, so I can just sacrifice some pixels for this experience. I know Nick Nissi in the chat said that he primarily uses his iPad for consumption and I'm just like, in every case, shape and form, if I was a digital artist and I used the Apple Pen and I used specific things that the iPad enables for an artist, then I'd probably be excited about the iPad, but I'm not, so I'm not. And so for me, anytime I hear iPad things, I just think, I just wish they would make a super inexpensive internet device that my kids can use in the Apple ecosystem that wasn't 500 plus dollars or more. That's just so much to sell it to a kid and you do wanna give them these fun things and stuff like that on trips, especially on trips. We're taking trips all the time. It's like, gosh, when we're driving, let's give them something to do so they can, I'm not gonna buy them a Vision Pro, so. You stole my joke. Sorry about that, Mike. You set us up and then you stole the joke. Well, that's all it goes. That's my least favorite thing though, is anything iPad related just because it's, to me, iPad for me in particular is just a, give me a smaller form factor, a kids -focused device that is affordable for parents, that has privacy features. That's something I'd be excited about. I like the iPad for what it is, but not for me. Closing loop on day one, I said, doesn't Microsoft own that? I was wrong once again. Owned by our friends at Automattic, owners of things such as wordpress .com, Tumblr. That's right. Pocket Casts, other cool, Matt Mullenweg's just building like this really interesting software conglomerate. What do you call it when you have disparate products? I don't know. He just owns a lot of cool stuff, so. Yeah. Well, Paul Mayne should really get some credit there because Paul Mayne drove that from day one. Thank you, we'll pass puns. And then I think they partnered with Automattic, which just made it a good acquisition, but they're still separate from what I understand. Owned by Automattic, Gothel Resources, but still very much operating as Bloom built LLC if Google's correct. So Paul Mayne is behind that. And one that, you know, how people take notes, great for forever, basically. Great for forever. All right, let's wrap it right here. These have been our WWDC hot takes. A lot of Vision Pro hot takes. We'll see how well they cool off over time. Hopefully better than Commander Taco on the iPod. We'll see, time will tell. Mike, thanks for hanging out with us and chatting, always a joy. Where's the best place folks can connect with you on the internet? Thanks, dudes. Primarily, probably Mastodon nowadays. I'm mikemcquaid at mastodon .social. There we go. But yeah, also my, everything's linked and I've got some writing and stuff like that on my website at mikemcquaid .com. You'll probably have to look out how to spell my lovely surname, but that's the best place to find me. We'll leave that as an exercise for the listener. Of course, the links are always in the show notes so you can click through there as well. All right, anything else, Adam? Let's try to spell McQuaid. I don't know how to spell McQuaid. How do you spell McQuaid, Mike, real quick? M -C -Q -A -I -D. Okay, I thought I was right, okay. mikemcquaid .com, check it out. That's it. All right, y 'all, I'll catch you on the next one. There you have it, our Apple Vision Pro hot takes. What do you think? Let us know in the comments. We'd love to hear from you. There's a link in your show notes for easy clicking. We have Matt Reier queued up for the next Change Loggin' Friends. The topic is still to be determined, but we better come up with one soon or he'll show up and want to just play his guitar for an hour. Special thanks again to our partners, fasty .com, fly .io, and typesense .org. And to Brakemaster Cylinder for bumping out the best beats in the entire biz. If you dig the stuff we're putting out, share the Change Log with developers you know. Tell them we have the Software World's best weekly news brief on Mondays, deep technical interviews on Wednesdays, and this talk show on Fridays. They'll thank you later, and I'll thank you right now. We appreciate you spreading the word. All right, that's it, this one's done, but let's talk again real soon. But this is for like those ultra high -end film studios potentially, or somebody who needs like extreme I .O., or they need infinite amount of M2, MVME, geez, I just got a frog in my throat. MVME, M2 drives, and that kind of thing, so. You should say that again, because it sounds like you're crying. Just clear your throat and say it again. Doesn't it sound like you got choked up? Yeah, gosh, I was crying about M2.