Putting the Apple in AI

Welcome to changelog and friends, a weekly talk show about that last critical GPU. Big thanks to our partners at fly .io, the home of changelog .com. Launch your app close to your users. Fly makes it easy. Find out how at fly .io. OK, let's talk. What's up, friends? I'm here with a new friend of mine, Jasmine Cassis, product manager at Sentry. She's been doing some amazing work. Her and her teams over many years being at Sentry and her latest thing is just awesome. User feedback. You can now enable a widget on the front end of your website powered by Sentry that captures user feedback. Jasmine, tell me about this feature.

Well, I'm Jasmine. I am a product manager at Sentry and I'm approaching my three year anniversary. So I've spent a lot of time here. I work on various different customer facing products. More recently, I've been focused on this user feedback widget feature, but I've also worked on session replay in our dashboards product with user feedback. I am particularly excited about that. We launched that a few weeks ago. Essentially, what it allows you to do is it makes it very easy to connect the developer to the end user, your customer. So you can immediately hear from your basically who you're building for for your audience. And you can get basically have a good understanding of a wide range of bugs. So Sentry automatically detects things like performance problems and exceptions. But there are other bugs that can happen on your website, such as broken links or a typo or permission problem. And that is where the user feedback widget comes in. And it captures that additional 20 percent of bugs that may not be automatically captured. I think that's why it's so special. And what takes it a step level above these other feedback tools and these support tools that you see is that when you get those feedback messages, they're connected to Sentry's rich debugging context and telemetry, because often I've seen it myself. I read a lot of user feedback. Messages are cryptic. They're not descriptive enough to really understand the problem the user is facing. So what's great about user feedback is we connect it to our replay product, which essentially basically shows what the user was doing at that moment in time right before reporting that bug. And we also connect it to things such as screenshots. So we allow we created the capability for a user to upload a screenshot so they can highlight something specific on the page that they're referring to. So it kind of removes the guesswork for what exactly is this feedback submission or bug report referring to.

Now, I don't know about you, but I have wanted something like this on the front end pretty much since forever. And the fact that it ties into session replay, ties into all your tracing, ties into all of the things that Sentry does to make you a better developer and to make your application more performant and amazing. It's just amazing. You can learn more by going to sentry .io. That's S -E -N -T -R -Y dot I -O. And when you get there, go to the product tab and click on user feedback. That will take you to the landing page for user feedback. Dive in, learn all you can use our code change log to get 100 bucks off the team plan for free. Now, what she didn't mention was that user feedback is given to everyone. So if you have a Sentry account, you have user feedback. So go and use it. If you're already a user, go and get it on your front end. And if you're not a user, well then, hey, use the code change log. Get 100 bucks off a team plan for three -ish months, almost four months. Once again, Sentry dot I -O. All right, we're here with our friend, Justin Searles, back from the land of the rising sun. Isn't that Japan? Is that what they call it? That is what they call it. What they call themselves, I guess. Yeah, six weeks. That's a long time. I was there. I had to go because Ruby Kaigi was there and that was three whole days in the middle. And then I just sort of padded it out on either side. That's a big pad. Yeah, right. I had a good time. What do you do when you go to Japan? Well, I've been learning the language since I was 18. And so started with a trip with my wife and I, we also like lived there for a year and she was a teacher, an English teacher in Nara for a year. And so we've made a bunch of friends over the years. And so the first week and a half was like, hang out with them. Then we went to Okinawa via the most circuitous and ridiculous path possible. Bunch of overnight fairies and stuff. And that was where the Ruby Kaigi conference was, which was again, fabulous conference. If you're at all interested in Ruby, the programming language, this is the best Ruby conference

in

the world. And it's a lot of fun and it's super welcoming and everything's translated. So

table

that. I was just going to ask that. Yeah. Yeah. Then I went to, uh, it parted ways with Becky and I had like two weeks of solo travel time. And the goal for me is always to maximize, well, two things really one language practice. So like I want to meet people, practice the language, which is, you know, can be hard to do just to meet a bunch of strangers over the course of two weeks traveling all over and two is eat as much good food as possible. So I did a tour of, normally if you go up and down the main island of Japan, you're actually, it's the Southern coast from Tokyo to like Osaka that you're traveling. So I went out of my way to actually for the first time, travel the North coast along the Japan sea, which is famous for really good seafood. So I hit a whole bunch of cities that most people have never been to and, uh, where there aren't so many tourists. And so I was able to sidle up at a whole bunch of izakayas and chat with people and eat a lot of really tasty fish. So I would recommend it. You want to speak some Japanese right now? That's a no. I have a phrase I've been wanting you to say as you've been sharing your story. Oh God. Are you ready to hear it? I'll hear it. The change log is the best podcast ever. Change log. Yeah, I love it. Change log is the best. And then I was like, Oh, I forgot to say the word podcast. Say podcast again in Japanese. Podcast. It's a podo kyasto. So it's a k -y -a kyasto instead of just kyasto. Podo kyasto. Cool. I love that language. And really I just do. It's such a beautiful language. It's perfect for the male voice. I've never really, I guess, maybe listened to many female speakers speak Japanese, but it's such a like a growling. There's some growling in there. There's like definitely like some, you know, in there. Yeah. Yeah. And the more manly you want to present yourself, the growlier it gets, which is why I find women way easier to understand. Less growling. Because they actually, they enunciate. Yeah. Men are like, that's cool. Thank you for appeasing my desires here. Cause I do believe that the change law podcast is the best podcast ever. And so there you go. That's why we're here. Good way to start a podcast. That is why we're here. We're also here because of the best keynote ever. I don't think so, but I just felt like that made sense to say in context of the previous sentence. And I'm just an auto completer. You know, that's what I do. I just pick the next best word for any given sentence. You better watch out your job. Your job is under threat. Oh, it sure is. It may have been the biggest, maybe not the best, but the biggest keynote, I would say for Apple in a while. And not just because of like product, but because of all of the hype and push and pull around now, I guess they want to brand it Apple intelligence, right? Like AI has been, as you know, Jared, I mean, speaking to the choir here, I'm sure you know as well, Justin, but we went to build at Microsoft build. And I just think we couldn't stop talking about AI because that's all they talked about. Google IO was all about it. And now we just sort of been waiting for Apple to unveil whatever they may or may not do around this. Now, obviously the open AI partnership was talked about weeks ago, so we knew something was coming. They couldn't sit that much longer. Siri could not sit and be Siri old version. It had to be, and I'm like my, I have to turn my phone off because Siri just like was talking to me now. You know, she, they, whatever the robot that is Siri could not continue to be as unintelligent as it had been. So it's it, they were primed to do something. But you know, the, the funny thing about dub dub is that for years and years it was genuinely a developer focused conference that mostly went under the radar. But then at some point during the Steve Jobs Renaissance, they started releasing more like big products and using it cause they're trying to get into this annual cadence of media events and like when they stopped going to Mac world, you know? And so, so I think they've sort of settled into this thing for the last seven or eight years where every couple of years there might be a big thing like last year was vision pro, right? Or a couple of years before, a year before that was like the Mac studio unveil and it was always on their terms. But this year, you know, and we'll talk about the keynote, but like the biggest impression that it made on me was there, if you're watching it and you're used to watching these, you're like, they are flying through these operating system updates. Like they're going to have them all done inside an hour when normally that's the whole show. And so the, the sort of a pretext that this is a developer conference and that this keynote is developer related was sort of totally out the window. Cause now it's, it's an extrinsic pressure from shareholders and the media and whatnot. And they're, I'm sure Apple marketing that like they had to grab the bull by the horns and just talk about AI as much as possible and get, get out ahead and craft their own narrative around it. So it really didn't, it felt very, I mean, I don't know if you felt this way, but watching the keynote felt super bifurcated for it for that reason. It was like, let's get all this stuff, which is nice and cool. And actually the things that I get kind of excited about, like the, the minor details of the next Mac OS that are going to just be a small feature that changed my life a thousand times a week in a small way. I like that kind of stuff. Like let's get all that over with. And then we can actually talk about AI, which is now Apple intelligence, of course. And it is long overdue. I mean, the pressure has been on them. I remember last year in their run -up to WWDC, we were talking with Simon Wilson about Gen AI or something like this. And I was like, my prediction last year was Apple is going to reinvent Siri with language models involved in a few weeks, you know, and then they didn't. And then a year later, of course, and they're known for being kind of slow and methodical and really trying to, you know, create a product that they can be proud of versus beating people to the punch or playing catch up really quickly and having an egg on their face. Like Google has repeatedly made attempts to just like re most recently redo search, which is their cash cow, uh, too much failure. And I mean, I can't, I just am still dumbfounded that Google rolled that product out with the way that it was currently working. I don't know. I know we're not here to talk about Google and Google search, but it's all the things. It's such a different philosophy. And I mean, I don't know if you guys were impressed by what they've crafted, but I thought, wow, it's a pretty cohesive story. They're differentiated. Obviously I do think the chat GPT integration is a weird like consolation thing for being slow and behind. Maybe you guys can bounce back on that, but overall I thought like their approach does seem like to me the most compelling product yet. Obviously it's just demos at this point coming this fall. All that being said, I felt like they did a pretty good job with their strategy. You know, it's interesting too. I think Google is always Google meta and, and to an extent Microsoft, if you think of them more as a B2B company, although I think they've done a good job transitioning to being a consumer oriented company like Google and meta, they, they, you get good at what you do and they don't make their money selling, taking dollars from Jared and Adam and Justin, right? Like the people paying them or somebody else and all of the like the reinforcing feedback loops inside of their broader system. Marketing is like an accident that happens sometimes and products are things that come and go for, you know, almost as a way to keep engineers retained as much as you know, something that's vital to their business. So of course it's not, it's not shocking, you know, when they're finally faced with an existential threat to the thing that makes them money, that they're completely caught flat -footed and flailing because they don't know how to ship a product. Sorry. If you're a Google fan or something, it's like their organization's lifeblood

that

is new revenue and profitability has nothing to do with the normal cadence of bringing something new to market for actual users to use and buy Gmail and Google maps. Like the two most famous things that everyone loves were total accidents, you know, and everything else was purchased pretty much. I don't know how you guys want to have this conversation to be honest. Cause like, I think maybe in the two halves, cause you called them, I don't know if you called them quality of life improvements, but I kind of feel like sometimes people talk about that, like it's a pejorative, but I'm like, actually I would love for the quality of my life to improve. Oh, that's what I'm saying. I'm here for it. I love it. Like if you look at my list of things that were exciting to me, it's like, I'm on the Mac OS Sequoia preview page and I'm just scrolling it thinking like, I can't wait for this sucker to come out, you know? So we can definitely start there. And the thing that was surprisingly the hit aside from Apple intelligence and the new Siri, what everyone's talking about calculator app, woo hoo, iPad users rejoice. And a very cool demo of the new iPad calculator. I'm not an iPad user, but again, quality of life improvement. Like why doesn't the iPad have a calculator now? It does. And it's a cool one. That's cool. Well, and to recap, if you didn't watch the keynote, what was cool about it is it has pencil support and you can just draw, you know, this is going to go down as one of the cool, like the best demos. The demo to actual people using this ratio is going to be hilarious, right? Because like the demo is just phenomenal. You draw the free body diagram that you have nightmares about from high school of all of the, like, you know, the throwing the basketball and, and, and, and the, you know, trying to figure out the arc and the cosine and stuff, and then you write down the equation and then you just put equals. And then you draw a line and you're like, you know, you cross your fingers that it'll recognize it. And then it writes the answer for you. And then you can change any of the other variables and it'll update the answer. You can tell like that they had something like that. And the reason that they're finally shipping a calculator app to the iPad was to show that off, right? For sure. For sure. Because it demos so well and it just, it just so impressive. I mean, it's the stuff out of the future, right? I mean, you basically take your story problem, you know, that your teacher gives you and you just write it down with your pencil, you know, and draw some little diagrams and lay it out. And then like, boom goes the dynamite. It's, but again, I don't think, I mean, I would probably, I don't even have an iPad, but I think some of that is in a math notes have come to also to the notes app. And I'm not sure if that's in there or that's just the iPad calculator, but. Regardless, I will probably never use this feature myself. I think that here's a great little microcosm though of how like Apple's marketing is effective where because you, because the imagined student is drawing all this, you feel like, oh, they're doing work. But like the fact that it's arriving at the answer means like the students not learning anything, they're just doing that rote drawing exercise. But the demo, if this was an open AI keynote would be take a picture of the problem and then it'll draw the picture or it'll just jump to the solution for you, which, and that to the average viewer is like, oh, now you're cutting the student out of the equation. So here, the student still exists, but their job is just to use these fancy devices to draw with a pencil,

even

though they don't end up learning math. Like, I mean, like we're losing the point of like that learning math is about learning math, but then that's why I think this is just an example of really, really high end top notch marketing. Yeah, that crack marketing team, you know, that's right. They are pretty good. What about you, Adam? Any quality of life things that you saw in the first half that stood out to you? I think I'm with Jared on the Sequoia preview. I mean, there's a lot of stuff in here that I can just see that one big fan of 1Password, by the way, they are a sponsor. They may sponsor this episode. I have no idea, but, you know, Jared, you may be excited about this integration. I'm less excited because now I might be sort of divided between two password apps, but I'm happy that they finally have credentials all in one place and an application that lets you command it, not this sort of hidden. I could never really figure out and that's why I've never adopted, you know, keychain in the cloud kind of thing, because it just seemed really hard to access where 1Password has solved that in so many ways. And by the way, this is not a sponsored mention. I'm just a big fan, as I've said before, a decade prior from my cold dead hands kind of person. And Apple may be, you know, at least peeling back one finger of mine. Yeah. I mean, I hope I'm not dead. Maybe I'm just like a warm, a warm, alive hand. One warm finger has been pulled back. One warm finger. Still a major fan, but you can't really beat native. And I think that's what I love so much about the announcements is that, you know, we talked about this, Jared, at Microsoft Build around the nativeness. I asked, I believe it was Marc Vicinovich, and he couldn't answer. I think I even edited it out because he couldn't answer it well. And it sounded like off in the whole show. Were you asking, like, how many of these buttons are actual buttons and how many are just HTML? No, it's more like here's this cool copilot assistant. Now there's copilots everywhere, but a lot of us have iPhones or Androids. There are no Microsoft phones. So, like, there is no native copilot. Like there is a native Siri or Google assistant. And like, what are you guys going to do about that? And his answer was kind of, well, there's a copilot app you can install. And it's like, well, that's not what we're talking about. I asked him very directly about, like, does this open up the opportunity for Microsoft to have a new crack at a device? Because they have a copilot plus PC and some new things they're doing there with, like, what's the new CPU dragon fly or something like that? I believe it's a dragon fish potentially. I don't know. The Qualcomm Snapdragon X. Yeah, Snapdragon. I know it was a dragon somewhere. There you go. They have that. I was like, well, I mean, if you're going to do all this artificial intelligence stuff and do it well, like you've demoed, you've done. I mean, Neha Batra, like, literally demoed speaking in Spanish into VS code and translating to English, working with copilot, the application, or could have been GitHub copilot. I'm not really sure. They all merge in my brain. Like, which copilot am I talking to? And there was, you know, a developer preview of speaking one language, translating to the other and getting work done, you know? And I think that's kind of cool. So if you're going to have that kind of power, why not have a native device? And I think that's what Apple is doing here is they're just natively bringing in the passwords out there, natively bringing in, you know, an upgrade to Siri and obviously the chat GPT extensions and stuff like that to let you opt in or out of the response. But I think Apple has a lot of things happening because they're native to the device we all for the most part, all know and love. So hear me out, Microsoft just come out with a little pin that you put on your chest. It's got copilot built right in. Shut up and take my money. Well, and that's, you know, when I was watching a lot of the same stuff, Adam, I was thinking this is such an easier lift for Apple. Exactly. That's what I was thinking too. Because they already have all the data. So like, yes, they get the privacy bona fides and they brag about it because they believe in it, I'm sure. But also because it plays to their strengths. For sure. Like the one, you know, I subscribe to mid journey for a long time. I've been paying for GPT plus for a long time. The one demo around the generation that really blew me away relative to my experience of fighting with these things. Hey, try to make this look like this person kind of thing was, Hey, just give me a picture of grandma with, you know, blowing out candles for a birthday cake. And it looks like her because you've got a jigillion photos on the device of her. Right. It's that effortless. Whereas, you know, you try to do that with mid journey and the amount of uploading and moving things around and then realizing that it's all public now. Right. Whoops. Yeah. You mentioned another thing, the passwords app, just not to lose sight of that. I've been a one password user for a long time, and I've been very eager to jump ship ever since they've moved to Electron. And I've just had a lot of issues with it. For anyone who's interested in the new iCloud key chain passwords, it's gotten a lot better and it is really cool. But until it has, until it stores your password history and is like exportable, like I will, I could never rely on it because if you've ever had the experience of like a change password screen where you got to enter the old password and then the new password, and then you click, you know, submit and the password manager updates the password because they generated a new password for you, but then the submission fails for whatever reason. And it didn't persist. Now you no longer like because iCloud key chain doesn't store password history. You just don't know your password anymore. And again, talking about Japan stuff, like a lot of Japanese systems, like I don't live there anymore, so I don't have a phone number there anymore. And so like, I can't, I literally cannot password reset a lot of my accounts. And I had a scare like that when I was relying on iCloud key chain a year ago, getting excited about this and then realizing there was just, once it sinks, like, you know, I've been saved by having like a, an iPad that was turned off, you know, put it into a Faraday cage and before it sinks, I collect key chain. So it's getting there though. Like I am glad that they're, that they're, I'm sure that feature will get added, but, but it seems like not, not this year. So I've, I've been a, I I've been an Apple passwords now it's called that, but previously whatever it was called key chain user for years. And I've used one password as a team. I have the one password app. We use it with change log stuff, et cetera, but everything has always been in that. And I've never ran into that. Justin, I've never had that problem. Now I have typed wrong passwords in, but in my experience, maybe it's, it's a bug or whatever is that it would wait until that password actually posts and it's successful before it saves it. And if it didn't post, then it would still have the old one in there. Clearly that didn't work in your case, a lot of websites will return a 200 and then some red text saying, Hey, this didn't work. Come on, web dev. That's not how it works. Yeah, right. 200 means. Okay.

I

hear you. If I had a nickel for every time somebody told me, huh, that's never happened to me before, Justin. Well, I wouldn't be on the show. Well, it's never happened to me either. Yeah. I'm a bit of a, well, you don't use it. Do you use one password? Well, so I still use one password and I still change passwords. And I don't always just use their mechanisms. I will literally copy out the password from one password into another application, which is a stable for me, which is called text soap. Text soap? Soap for, I'm gonna say it really finite like that. Is that a sponsor? Soap. Yeah. No, they say it again. I'm saying that because I've been using it for 15. I mean, forever. I could not imagine not having text soap on any Mac. I hear soap in the context of software development. And I just had, I cringe, you know, nightmares. W S dash text. The beautiful thing is, is it lets you copy text from places and you can sanitize it. You can scrub it in different ways. You can slugify things. So there's some things I do in there. You can uppercase things. It's kind of a, you know, a scratch pad with intelligence that just throws away. I never use it for notes. I'm not writing anything in it. It's just literally streaming consciousness, work in progress, copy paste stuff. And in this case, I will copy out the, you know, in this case of a new password, old password situation, I will copy out the existing password, store it in this text, you know, this text file that opens up for me as a visual. He's a worker. And then I would do the whole password change and manually edit because I don't trust the software because I've had what you've had happened to be before, Justin. So I circumvent that by being, you know, manually doing it. And I would say smarter because I'm like not relying on the software to glitch. It's like short term password history. Right. Manually. And as soon as I delete that, you know, as soon as I close that application, it's gone. Like it doesn't keep any history whatsoever. And even Raycast. Hey, by the way, Raycast is a sponsor. Love them too. Raycast dropping all the names in this one. It will delete it, you know? So if you copy stuff from 1Password, it doesn't keep in its history. So even if it's in the Raycast history as a password, it doesn't get kept. So there's some safety there. Yeah. So it's a zero trust system of a manual buffer that you've built. And that's right. If it works for you, that's awesome. I just wish that software worked and you didn't have to do that. But at the same time, though, I think I am excited about for the world, not so much to replace 1Password, for the world to have passwords baked into Apple. There are so many friends of mine that I want to recommend 1Password and they and 1Password understands they have a because of their security model. It's generally challenging to set up. There's some hoops. You got to want to use 1Password. I had to type. I had to type my wife's secret key yesterday and I was like, well, I don't forget that, right? Go find a box with that. And she's not her phone. Yeah. So just to be totally clear, like this passwords app is not new. What they've done is they just put a name on it and pulled it out of settings, right? I mean, there's probably some new features.

But

like all this functionality, like they got pass keys in there. They got all kinds of stuff that I've been using for a long time and it works really well, but it was always buried. That being said, on the current Mac OS, you can just, you know, command space and start typing the word passwords and it will launch that subsection of the settings. And if you open keychain, it'll warn you. You probably don't want this. If you think you want keychain, this is for old people. This isn't for Adam. You know, you made a good point, though, about how the passwords app could improve the world. One of the features I just read about this morning, I don't think it was in the presentation, is if you're using iCloud keychain, there's going to be an on by default setting to upgrade all of your logins to pass keys. So like if you log in with your normal iCloud keychain handshake, you'll just invisibly have the pass key generated and added to the keychain. So that for the golden future where that's how we're all logging into everything that's already, it doesn't delete your login. So your password will still work. It's just like an additional token that gets added. So that seems like a good viral approach. I have a lot of bugs with the pass keys with one password though. Like there's a lot of things that like it just doesn't work. I haven't tried it. I don't know if it's them or if it's pass keys. I don't know who to blame. Is it

the

specification, the protocol, the storage process? But like I log into... Seems like the specification was written with like the platform, the device manufacturer in mind and not like a third party floating cross platform thing in mind. That's the hard, I mean, that's a challenge for one password that's just ongoing. I just recently skimmed a post of theirs about a lot of the work that they're doing just to keep it working inside of Safari. And it's like, come on, Apple. At a certain point, you're just wondering if they're making it harder on purpose. Right. Yeah. I mean, that's true because there's a lot of things like in the Safari field that pop up. We have to do a lot of sniffing to the UI to like display their interface to give you that functionality. And they're not baked in. They may be using native protocols like with Xcode or whatever. But in the end, well, I guess probably not because they're Electron, right? It's an Electron app. I think that if I had a wish for one password would be to get acquired. They've built so much trust into the ecosystem. They really are the premier, the best in my opinion. Now, I think they have a chance of losing some market share or not getting that easy earlier market share by having native baked in. Apple, just buy one password. Oh, I was going to say, you heard it, Salesforce. Join the Slack team. Apple has no interest in buying one password. I don't think so. I mean, well, that may be true, but I can still wish. Justin. Oh, no, sorry. You said wish. I don't mean to put on your wishes. That's my bad. I would just say my wish is mainly because I've been such a fan for so long. It would suck to see them. It's an awesome team. They're great people. Eventually lose because they couldn't find a way to merge and join the forces. I think they're doing a good job of diversifying and moving into the enterprise and going to windows and going to Android and like making one password bigger than just Apple that I feel like they're going to be okay. Cause there's always stuff that even though Apple Sherlock's you, they're not going to do it very well or go into the areas that you're going to go. Like that being said, this is the one case where they have such an advantage that it might be difficult for one password to play in that particular arena, but there's always vendors just not going to focus on. They're going to do their halfway attempt and yeah, they're going to get tons of market share cause it's pre -installed, but anybody who really cares about this particular aspect of their system will go find

the

best in class software. And for the tiny percentage of neckbeards who know what a password manager is like, yes, the market is saturated, but now a whole generation of people are going to learn, Oh, there's an app to manage passwords. Oh wait, there's a better one. Oh, here's a TikTok that explains how this one's multi -platform or whatever. Yeah, exactly. It'll, it'll grow the pie. Yeah. To a certain extent. I agree. Good, good points. What's up friends. I'm here in the breaks with one password, our newest sponsor. We love one password. Mark is here, Mark Mackenbach, director of engineering. So Mark, you may know that we use one password in production in our application stack. We're diehard users of one password and I've been using one password for more than a decade now. I'm what I would consider a diehard lifelong, never letting it go. Probably my cold dead hands type of user. And I love the tooling. I love specifically the new developer tooling over the last couple of years, but what are your thoughts on the tooling you offer now in terms of your SSH agent, your CIC integrations, the things that help developers be more productive? I'm a developer myself and I've been bugged for ages with all of the death by a million paper cuts is the expression. I think all of the friction you run into and we've come so used to, I don't know, you wake up, you grab your phone and your phone unlocks with your face and everything's easy. But once you're a dev and you need to SSH into something, suddenly you need to type in a password and you need to figure out how to generate a, an RSA key or an elliptic curve key. You need to know all these types of things. And I don't know about you, but I always still Google the SSH key 10 command. Yeah, every time. And I've been in this industry for a bit and I still have to do it. And that's just, it's annoying. It's friction that you don't need and it kills productivity as well. It takes you out of, out of your flow state. And so that's why we decided to fix and make nicer, make better, better user experience for developers because they deserve good user experience too. I agree. They do. So let's talk about the CI CD integrations you all have. I know we love this feature here at change that we use this in production, but help me understand the landscape of this feature set and how it works. Well, most CI CD jobs nowadays, they reach out to somewhere. So you publish a Docker image or you reach out to AWS or something, always go into like a third party service for which you need secrets. You need credentials. And so people see their GitHub actions, config be peppered with secrets. Now, GitHub has been nice and they've built a little bit of a secret system around that. But once you need to update your config, you need to update in all the different places. And once you need to rotate it, that also becomes harder. And so what one password does is it allows you to put all your credentials in a one password vault, just like you're used to, and then sync those automatically to your GitHub actions where they're needed. And the same system that you use in your GitHub actions actually also works if you have a production workload running somewhere on the server. And the same type of syntax and system also works when you're doing something locally on your, uh, on your laptop, for instance. So if you're having a dot E and V file, like a dot M file, for instance, that's very notorious. Like people always have this in teams and they, they slack it around out of band, so to speak, because they know that they shouldn't check it into source code, but we then have all these slack messages back and forth on, Hey, do you have the latest version of the dot end focus? Somebody made a change somewhere. And instead of that, what we actually really want is to just be able to check all that stuff into source code, but without having all the secrets in there. So with one password, you can check in references to the secrets instead of the secrets themselves. And then one password will resolve and sync all that automatic. Yeah. So that's exactly how we're using one password. We store all of our secrets in a vault called change log, and we declare a single secret in fly dot IO. This is where we host changelog .com and the secret is named OP underscore service, underscore account, underscore token. And then we load all the other secrets you have into memory as part of the app boot via OP and a file we made called ENV dot OP. Now inside of GitHub actions, we're still passing them manually, but we do have a note to ourselves for future dev that we should use OP here too, but big deal to use this tooling like this in the application stack at boot, we do it. And if you want an example of how to do it, check out our repo. I'll link up in the show notes, but we have an infrastructure MD file that explains everything. Obviously you can find the details in our code, but do yourself a favor. Do your team a favor, go to one password .com slash changelog pod, and they got a bonus for our listeners. They've given our listeners and exclusive extended free trial to any one password plan for 28 days. Normally you get 14 days, but they give us 28 days, double the days. Make sure you go to one password .com slash changelog pod to get that exclusive signup bonus or head to developer dot one password .com to learn about one password, amazing developer tooling. We use it, the CLI, the SSH agent, the get integrations, the CICD integrations, and so much more. Once again, one password .com slash changelog pod. Well, here is the other thing on macOS Sequoia that I'm super excited about. I wonder if you guys are use your iPhone from your Mac iPhone mirroring. For me, this is like you set up your iPhone. You can put it into, what do you call that standby mode, the sideways mode while you're on the feature, you set it up there, turn it horizontal. It goes in the dashboard mode basically, and then you can just control it from your Mac with like an iPhone right there on your screen. Like it's like a window inside of your Mac

and

it's just your iPhone. You can just do all the things. I don't know. This seems, am I just drinking the Kool -Aid or as somebody who struggle. So I struggle a lot with holding my attention and focusing and not getting distracted. You're not going to use. So like I immediately posted a screenshot where I said like, you know, did you put your phone away to focus here? We fixed that for you, bring it right back. You throw it in a bag or whatever. You just can't get away. In fact, the other aspect of this, they really did think this through and it makes a ton of sense. It's kind of like, it's actually surprising that they haven't had notification syncing sooner on this deeper level, but the notification side is then they showed a Duolingo example. You click the notification and then it says if a simulator, it looks like if you've ever used the iOS simulator, it looks just like that, except it's your phone screen over VNC or something. But yeah, and then you're, you're in Duolingo and you're actually controlling it from the Mac screen. So this is, this is a total nightmare.

It's

a dream for me, Justin. It's a dream. Can you turn it off? I'm sure you can turn it off. I'm sure because I mean, I don't always have phone calls come into certain Mac Mac computers. I got several that I use like a laptop, a desktop, and I think an older laptop I use just for like writing pretty much. It's like, you know, old, but you know, like I still take phone calls sometimes, but like my main phone or sorry, my main machine that I'm on right now, my work laptop, I don't take the phone calls there. So I disable, you know, the ability for the phone to ring on this desktop. However, on like every time my phone rings, my computer at home, my wife just told me that she's like, you know, the computer at home rings all the time. Like when you're not here, I'm like, uh, I'm about to turn that off. So I can agree with you. Like it's great if you're present at the computer, but it's not great if you're bothering somebody else. I, uh, uh, so I'm, uh, if, if anyone's followed me or, you know, my website that justin .surls .co for a long time, you'll know that I am, this is a bugaboo of mine. I'm very, very focused on notifications and controlling them and, and everything. But like right after my own personal productivity and my own personal distractibility, my second biggest concern is other people. Like, I feel like, I feel like everyone being so distracted all the time is resulting in worse, how it comes throughout the industry and all kinds of things, right? Like, like, like how has productivity as, as, as people's thoughtfulness of people's ability to creativity actually increased with all these awesome technical tools or are we just so spread thin and just distracted all to all hell. But the focus on that front, on the ability to actually focus. I was one of the things that I think is going to have the biggest positive impact in people's lives. If you've ever used focus modes in iOS and across Apple's platforms to set up, like, I'm in my personal mode and only, you know, in my case, um, um, I've got maybe five contacts who can message me and I'll see those notifications, but I won't see the rest of messages app, right? Or I've got like only these handful of apps for which notifications can punch through. It's kind of like a, you know, customizable or a context aware, do not disturb mode. Setting that up took me several hours and a lots of trial and error and can explaining it to my wife. I'm in like, I'm currently in like month nine of trying to explain what it means when it's on, but the new natural, or excuse me, the, the Apple intelligence mode will have a automatic focus, like a Siri focus that you can just turn on called reduced distractions. And I suspect for most people, most of the time that's going to accomplish the same where it's only like, you know, the Uber marketing notifications will never get through, right? Like the, the social media stuff probably won't, but if somebody sends you a text and it seems important, it'll say possibly important. And it'll, that'll pop through. I think that's brilliant. And that's, that'll, that'll help a lot of people hopefully finally succeed with who the hell is going to set up focus modes manually, right? Not me now. Yeah, I think that's a good point. And I think that is probably going to be the boon of the new and improved. Siri is just providing a natural language interface and helps into things that are otherwise the land of super users and power nerds. Right. It's like, you're probably the only one who has that set up just right. And it's, it's as buggy as the day it was born, you know? So, so well, screen time, I would love some help with screen time. Cause you know, we manage a bunch of kids and their phones and, and they've zeroed you they've well, I hope Apple just closed a zero day where you could just like, it was like a trending Tik TOK or something where you could just paste a random series of strings and overload, like overload safaris and get to whatever you wanted. Hey, it's difficult to configure in the first place to get it dialed in the way that you've done your downtime stuff or your do not disturb is we've spent hours on that for our family screen time. Be some software updates. I've just reverted settings. It's like, Oh, that's all gone now. Cause we updated this patch iOS release and then see there's so many holes in the system that a savvy kid of which there are many can just find work around. So just completely diverted and just all of a sudden they're just talking to chat GPT or they're just surfing the web, you know? All right, Jared, I want you to imagine the future. It's iOS 22. Okay. You know, a few years down the road and you have a there's a, you go to the screen time, the parental restrictions area of the settings and you're in, you're in your new vision pro and you're, you're sitting down in a couch and then Siri appears and has a consultation with you as if she were a babysitter. And you explain all the things. The, Hey, my, my kids can watch this stuff. No pizza after 11, you know, like this, this, this, to give the general, like you're creating like in current state, like a custom GPT to explain like, as a parent, this is what we're cool with. This is what this kid needs. And then from there, it's just, Bob's your uncle, you know? And then it's a, you get plausible deniability. Like if the, if the kid gets mad, it's like, Oh, sorry, man. I I'll, I'll let her know. I'll get, I'll try to give her that feedback, but you gotta listen to Siri. I'm not gonna tip her for her babysitting. Oh man. Yeah. Let's not get into the labor implications. Right. Yeah. I'm sure iPads are doing babysitting for too many people already for too long, but that's another problem we have is that problem. That would be awesome. That would be way better than what we're currently doing, which is like turning knobs and flipping switches. And then like hoping those, that switch didn't flip back. But then again, you know, we have this fancy natural language smart assistant on there and then it misconfigures it and it's broken and that doesn't work. And I'm just, Bob's not my uncle anymore. What do you think Adam? I like the picture you painted and I like the plausible deniability of it too, because it is, I thought I was parenting well, but it does give you the scapegoat to the kids. Like I'm not the bad guy. I like the, the bad thing is Siri. You know, I've, I've consulted Siri and Siri does what I tell Siri does what Siri does. That's right. You know, can't, I'll talk to her. I like that Justin. Speaking of plausible deniability. So I've, I've because I love chatting with you guys so much and, and you kind of, I've been, I guess often enough that I got the podcast bug. I started my own podcast at the beginning of the year called breaking change and it's a solo podcast. So if you like the sound of me talking and you, and you just want three hours of it, that's a great way to get yourself, just me. And so if you've never listened to solo podcasts, I thought that it would be super weird to listen to. I found one I really like. And so I thought I could give this a try because I'm really bad at listening, but I'm good at creating mouth words.

He

can talk for three hours. Yes, one of my gifts. But when you talk about plausible deniability, I was talking about that on that other podcast about breaking change in advance. So there's a recording on Saturday. I was wondering like, why would Apple publicly announce that they're going to work with open AI for their backend model when, you know, all of our iCloud stuff is stored on Azure, AWS, Google cloud, and Apple never, you know, betrays that information, right? They play them off each other. They just treat it like a commodity. So why is it that the language model would get elevated into this thing? And Federighi even kind of previewed that it would be, was it him? Whoever's talking about it, it was like that it would be configurable in the future, that they'd add additional models. And then so like for Apple to take both third parties, elevate them to a named thing on their platform that the users know about, and then to give the users the work of having to decide which model is best in which circumstances, there must be a reason. And I think that that reason became clear during the keynote, which was Apple wants plausible deniability. Hey, you know, we are confident that our very limited model that's only local, that's like got temperature set to zero is going to work fine. But if you want something more here, you can click this escape hatch button. And as soon as you do, you're going to see chat GPT may make mistakes and you're going to see their logo big. And so like what Apple is saying really is that's the throat to choke. Don't look at us. Whereas Google has all the egg on their face because they brand Gemini as Google Gemini and Microsoft too, even though copilot, we all know we in the industry know that is backed by open AI. They want to brand it as if it's their own thing. And they go out of their way to say, Oh, we've got all of our own proprietary models on top of it too, which means that when it recall screws up or whatever these new features are blow up, it's Microsoft with egg on their face. So I think this is a way for them to have their cake and eat it too. Yeah. Good observation. I think that's probably exactly right. I can't because I can't think of another reason why they would do it. It's so against what they normally do, except for my, I guess my warmest take was like, well, it's a way of, of just catching up really quickly without actually having to put the work in, but we know they put the work in on these foundation models anyways that run on device. So it's not like they're not going after it internally with their engineers. So I think it does make sense that they're like, well, here be dragons, but they're not our dragons. Go ahead and use it. We're going to provide them for you. But

you

know, when the, when the rubber hits the road, go complain to these people. We're just here. We're here for you. And they, they betrayed you with their models. So, and five, five years from now, maybe we pull a, a Google maps, Apple maps thing. Right. And we, we have our, our own model that is mature enough when we're not that way. We're not moving fast and breaking things, but we're still getting all the things that the market is saying that we should have or that people are coming to expect. Seems like a huge opportunity for open AI as if they, they don't, you know, they're still small. They're huge in, in the hype cycle. They're huge right now that they're gaining that almost that Kleenex brand they're getting there with chat GBT, but that's a couple hundred million users compared to what? 1 .6 billion active, right? I mean, it's a huge difference in actual people. And so it's a huge opportunity for them. Obviously they don't seem like the kind of company who moves slow and doesn't break things like they're very much going at going for the gusto. And I think they know like this is their opportunity to do that. And so it makes a hundred percent sense why they would want to do this, but they're definitely going to have, you know, when you push things to the masses, you get the massive failures, you know, like you get, it's a whole nother level. It's just the law of large numbers. Like more stuff goes wrong more often. I think from a safety perspective, I'm personally really glad that there is a two tiered system with this apple intelligence stuff where like the, the equivalent of a large action model, like what the rabbit R1 was doing, where, you know, I'm sure on a phone is going to make way more sense where I'm telling Siri, Hey, go and do things across these apps on my behalf. That's all going to be either the on device or the running in an M2 ultra in the cloud. You know, apple stuff, chat GBT will not be able to act on my behalf and then like accidentally call nine one one or, or, you know, order a thousand pizzas or, or delete my bank account. That seems pretty like, like, like there's a pretty firm line somewhere in the capabilities. It's like text generation or, or, you know, it's not like it can suddenly, as soon as you hit, okay, take over and, and route your phone. The other thing I thought was pretty savvy, but they have been putting in asterisks at the bottom of the pages and not like upfront with is like this apple intelligence stuff, which is obviously the flagship thing that they're here to talk about

is

on iPhone 15 pro and newer, which is this year's model. I mean, there's nothing newer than that right now. Obviously in the fall, when this stuff ships, there will be a 16, I assume there'll be a new phone that comes out, but this, in addition to being their big, you know, pushing their chips into the pile of the AI game. They're also like, we're going to sell some new devices. We need, we need a good reason to sell some new devices because they're struggling to sell new devices compared to the past at this point. Yeah. I noticed that as well as like this system will be available for free on the iPhone 15 pro as well as on iPads and max with an M one chip and later. So I'm happy that the M one that we've invested in Jared, you have the same machine. I do have an M one. Yeah. Yeah. Like we can inherit this without having to change anything, but I have an iPhone 14 and it's perfectly fine. Exactly. I don't, is it, is it Jared? Exactly. Come this fall, it's not going to be anywhere near perfectly fine anymore. And that's a, that is a bummer because I don't want to have to change my phone to get this new stuff. Like how much different is the iPhone 14 pro max versus the iPhone 15 pro max? What is the difference? One is exactly one year difference. Exactly. Like there is no, it's titanium. That was the thing this year, right? The band is made of titanium instead of steel and they marketed the heck out of it and it was successful, but this is an actual differentiator. Yeah, it is. You know, if you want to look at it charitably, instead of this is a crude appeal to sell more phones is you got to set that floor somewhere, you know, and if it's a brand new thing, may as well set the floor for where our top of the line is now, because they're only going to get better. And so if that floor specifies what like the, the size, the parameter count of the model that they can squeeze into it, then we're getting a bigger model because they're excluding the 14 pro or the base level 15. So it's not necessarily the most cynical thing in the world. Well, and it's just business, you know, at the end of the day, these are businesses that are trying to make money and this is how you make more money. Now they have more money than most businesses in the world. Are they number one at this point or two? In market cap, they, they, they jostle between one, two, and three between Microsoft and now Nvidia. Nvidia just hit third, I believe, or maybe higher than third. Yeah, those three are definitely there in the trillions, but you know, if you're trying to move that number up into the right, which is the job of the leadership of a publicly traded company is to do that, then this makes total sense. The other thing I found interesting is they're also sort of like dipping their toe in to the geography. So this is English only for now. And so that's like a huge portion of the world who are not going to get this unless they have a series set to English mode. So they're not going for the gusto that way. I'm sure it's a much harder problem to go multilingual right out of the box with these features, but not only will you have to have a new phone, you'll also have to be, you know, speaking English. Not just, not just using the languages, right? But like I have a feeling like Apple is probably going to spend more time QA -ing and red team like testing the negative things you could, that it could do. So they probably don't have staff that speak other languages of the scale that they would need to really thoroughly test the safety, at least in this early days. That's probably also part of the calculus for like what languages they'll support out the gate. I was looking at the compare iPhone models page. I've got the iPhone 15 Pro Max up and I've got the iPhone 14 Pro Max up, which is the phone that I own, which is the iPhone 14 Pro Max. Love saying all four of those words in unison. Thank you very much. And the difference, you know, where it really matters is the chip is the A16 versus the A17 Pro. You all probably know this, but when you compare them, aside from the number changing, I'm sure there's some innards and some technology changes that are more advanced to give the A17 Pro some advancements. But when you compare them, it's A16 Bionic chip, A17 Pro chip, six core CPU, six core GPU, 16 core neural engine. And the only difference between the two is that on the A16, which is the iPhone 14 Pro Max version, is a five core GPU versus a six core GPU on the A17 Pro.

So

I agree with you, Justin, but come on. I mean, like these are the same. That last GPU is critical. It's just critical. Right. You got to have it. I think the number of cores is one variable, the quality of those cores and what they're capable of. Don't say that. That's not true. Don't be on there. Don't be on there. I'm sorry. I'm just playing the role of shill today. Don't do that, Justin. This is your last time coming back. Okay. There was a die shrink, so it's three nanometers. I don't care about that. I know, man. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Speeds and feeds, baby. Speeds and feeds. Was it clear, though? Like are the, you know, for anyone listening, if this is the case, they might be yelling at their computer. Are the features available to people on older devices? It's just going to all be to the cloud? Are we only talking about the ability for on -device processing? It all says Apple intelligence will be available. So that's what it says in the small text. And so what all does that encompass, I guess is what we're asking. Yeah, yeah. And I don't know the answer. Well, you know, I wanted to get into the quality of life stuff, and I think that the AI is just so all -consuming right now. It's hard not to get sucked in. So I'll pick out another quality of life thing that really jumped out at me. This feels like the third year in a row where there's been an AirPods Pro demo that immediately was like, hell yeah. Like the, cause I have Siri notifications turned on. I run outside every day or I'm out and among people, but I hate like talking back to it after I get an announcement. So the demo was you can just now nod and shake your head. If you have AirPods Pro to nod to in the affirmative. So it was like, hey, as your workout, workout says like, it looks like you're done with your run. You want to end your workout? And you can just nod and have it be done, right? I think that's obvious in hindsight. Surely the accelerometers could have done that for a while, but that they're adding that I think is just a really clever one. The demo or the video had a man standing in the center of an elevator surrounded by strangers and he had his AirPods in and a phone call comes in, I believe. And they're like, do you want to talk right now? Not just any phone call. It's like your nana or something like your - Yeah. Some sort of like personal situation, you know? And he just shakes his head no. Nobody is any the wiser. I still think it'd be weird to see a guy just randomly shaking his head in the elevator, but, you know, less weird than just him saying, no, you know? Oh, I'm fast forwarding already. Like I'm at the checkout at the grocery store shaking my head at the person when they ask if I, you know, paper or plastic. No, no, not that. The other one, and this is right before it in the show, when they showed that you can, because I'm a big Apple cash person because it's private and it's not going to leak everything I do like Venmo does by default or anything. So I like sending Apple cash with messages, keep it in the walled garden family. They added tap to cash. So you can just use that new kind of beacon feature of like touching the phone tops together and immediately, even just like the image of seeing two people do it to trade money. First of all, it's evocative of sci -fi. That might've been the thing that came to come to mind is like certain sites, like you're changing credits or something in some dystopian future Blade Runner thing. But the thing that really came to mind for me is like, that's drug dealer mode. Like that's straight up. Like I, I'm surprised I didn't see a whole bunch of people say, oh, drug dealer mode. Like that's, it's harder to trace like those transactions. It's not like it's impossible. It's well backed by like a real bank somewhere, but a lot of illicit stuff happens via Apple cash because it is more secure. Yeah, I just, I thought it was hilarious that they demoed it that way. Better than Bitcoin for drug dealers turns out more convenient, funny story about that. NFC, like put the phones close to each other and they start exchanging stuff is our daughter had a 16th birthday party and she had maybe seven, eight, nine girls spend the night. And at a certain point, like nine, 10 PM, we just collect all the phones. We're like, you guys are just going to spend time together. You've been on your phones. Fine. Like we're those parents were like all like, it's an airplane heist. You like walk down the aisle with a bag and you're like, well, we have, we just tell them to do it, you know, go ahead and collect the phones, bring them up. And so, yeah, my daughter's friend walks up. She's got a stack of iPhones mostly, and there's probably like nine of them. And she goes and sends them on the counter in the kitchen. And there, it turns out they're all just trying to send each other their information because they're just too close to each other for too long. And then what was funny was in the morning, one of them had an alarm set for like six 30 in the morning. And of course it wakes me up. I go to figure out, I go out there to turn it off and I can't figure out which phone it is. Cause they're all like so close to each other that I'm like out there, like holding each phone out to my ear. I'm like, are you the one doing it? Are you the one doing it? Are you the one doing it? It was hilarious. I was imagining like a Jenga tower and it was like the bottom one vibrating and they all just fall down and crack on your time. It was definitely one of the, I checked a lot of them. It was very difficult. And then you don't want to like, you know, look at their home screen or like, you don't want to pry at all into their phone. Cause it's very personal device, but like I'm trying to turn the stinking alarm off. So yeah, just thinking about the technology's effect on our lives, you know, like the weird things that happen. Like you said, you're at the grocery store and you're shaking your head. No. And they just asked you if you want paper or plastic and no is not a proper response to either to that question. It's not, you know, it's not a yes or no question, sir. It's paper or plastic. We don't think ahead or we don't, I don't know. It's like kind of an unintended consequences thing of like just the way they actually plays out in real life is always weird and wild. Yeah. Adam curious, is there anything else that you saw that's like, man, I want to, I want to use that. I would look forward to that. It's a simple thing really, but I think it's just the, the nature of the iPhone has not been very customizable until I would say the last several iterations of iOS. So I'm excited to see that. Like, like for example, Jared, I don't know. Oh wait, let me remove. Do not disturb. And let's see if you can tell me where this photo is from. Oh yeah. That's the paramount. That's an, uh, yeah. Took this really awesome photo of the paramount. And the other day I was just like customizing my screen. Right. And it suggested this photo and it looked that good because like it was a color photo when I took it. So we were in Seattle recently, as I've mentioned a couple of times for Microsoft build 2024. And I believe it was even Scott Guthrie said, oh, that's the paramount theater. We've gone there before. And he was just sharing stories about Microsoft build being in Seattle and whatnot. And so when Jared and I were out scooting and walking as we were touring the city and doing different things, I snapped this shot of the paramount and it looked really good. And the iPhone, when it suggested recently, when I was kind of customizing my home screen, it suggested a different screen, I guess, a different wallpaper. And I'm like, sweet. Yeah, I like that. And I added it, but now I see all these new customizable features that you can like color icons and stuff like that. Like that's cool because traditionally the iPhone has not been very customizable. And I think that really is a quality of life thing in my opinion, right? Like I can take this photo that I just snapped quickly. I'm a pretty decent framer when I take photos. But that photo looks really good. I'd swear like I can probably sell that thing. That's how good it looks. You know, I mean, somebody wants this thing on at least it. I like how you went from pretty decent to like, I could sell that thing. I could probably sell it, right. But, you know, I've got different shots of my kids too that I put on there and my family or whatnot. But for now, it's the paramount, this random theater in Seattle, which I was told about by Scott Guthrie. We were walking around, but the customization I think is really cool. Just the colorization and the, just the things you can do. It's not super crazy customizable, but it's definitely more than it has been, but specifically like changing the icon colors and whatnot. To me, that's, that's pretty dope. What about as a developer? How do we think about this? Because I don't own an iPhone app, but if I did and I spent a whole bunch of money on a really cool icon and then someone just gonna like crank the color tone to pink on it, you know, I mean, it's their phone do what they want, but sure. It's kind of like, I think you just answered your question. True. I'm not going to stop them, but I'm kind of like, come on, man. I'm really glad it's not opt -in or it would never have happened because every single brand officer, every company big enough to have somebody in charge of brand. No, they have to just, yeah, they got to just do it. And they did it right. And I'm actually not mad about it. I just know that that probably ekes some people where it's like, they're going to make my icon ugly everywhere they go. Well, Apple is like, you know, of all the companies that are absolute control freaks about how they're presented, they're letting you color their icon. So I guess, you know, you've got to be a real tight wad to be so upset. You know, the biggest thing about that feature that had been previewed and, you know, Mark Gurman leaked so much of this in advance on Friday, Friday before, but for months it's been, Hey, the grid, you no longer have to snap all the things into the grid. And I took that to mean

what

it means is you don't need some widget to create white space between items anymore. Like you'll be able to put them wherever. But what I think a lot of Android users and people who genuinely want total control took it to mean was free pixel point placement of your apps, wherever the hell you want. And I was like, no way, like Apple has some tastes, like it's going to be a grid, it's going to be the same grid. Maybe you can resize the, you know, but like, and so when I saw it click into the grid, I just, you know, I'm not on Twitter anymore, but I could have only imagined that if the Twitter that existed in 2018 was a thing, I would have seen a lot of my Android friends or a lot of people really looking forward to this level of customization and be like, Oh, what the hell? This is just, this is a spacing. But, but for most people that's, that's what they would want, right? It was just put it at the bottom of the screen or at the bottom of the photo. The best thing I saw on Twitter slash X post keynote was a tweet slash X post ruined it, which was the, a cutout of the video. If you watch the keynote, there's this transition where Federighi, Craig Federighi, who is kind of the, he's the Steve Martin of, I feel like his comedic timing has gotten to be. So if, did you see his first ever demo he was demoing? I think his hands were shaking, the hand shaking over the magic mouse. And they just cruelly kept up close up of that as he's like, yeah. And, and now you see like, he's doing like spit takes to camera and that guy has gotten, I don't know if it's training or what, or just kind of growing into the role. He is a performer. He is so good. Yeah, he really is. And he keeps it funny. Sometimes it's like too dad jokey for

even

me who loves a good dad joke, but it's good stuff. Cause otherwise the things get boring. Anyways, there's this transition where he's like jumping over the railing and down and it's like, he's parkouring to the next area. And in context, it made sense and it was kind of funny, but if you take that one just by itself, it looks like he's fleeing the scene of a crime or something. And the caption was like, it's cause he was just tapped to caching his dealer. No, the caption was Craig Federighi just got asked what, where the training data comes from or something like that. And he just bolts. You know, if you want to talk about things that they didn't talk about, that they normally are very eager to talk about environmental impact. And I saw a lot of people, you know, express frustration about this as like, there was a lot

of,

not even hand -waving. They just never, I don't, did, did anything green come up even once? Not that I can think of. No. Right. And you know, Microsoft, there was some article in some magazine, this is really helpful, describing that Microsoft is just going to totally beef their, their environmental impact goals on account of all of the AI churn that they're going through. I'm curious whether or not, of course, Apple may have mentioned that it uses like less electricity at some point or less power, but that was probably more from a battery perspective when we're talking about the on -device processing. And of course, you know, any amount of local phone device thing is going to save some round trip to a server that probably is way more noxious from a, from a, an electricity consumption perspective. But it does feel like, uh, Apple and all of these companies who've made such big commitments for going green and for combating climate change, they are not super eager to talk about the elephant in the room when it comes to the amount of process, processing that this requires. It's a lot. Back to quality of life improvements, tap back with any emoji. Even a genmoji, even a gemmoji, which is going to be a thing.

We

should probably explain Adam. What's a genmoji? Do you know, did you catch this? Uh, it's a generated emoji. She nailed it. Dang. I'm just so good here. Verse engineered that answer. I win. So Apple intelligence can generate for you an emoji based on a description or whatever. And, you know, it just looks like one and everyone in the, in advance, everyone's like, well, that's not Unicode. So you can't put that in, in text or whatever, but Apple, Apple's had a thing. It's called like attributable string or something where you can have like images in line with texts in their APS for a long time. So like genmojis are just that. So they can just like live in text and Unicode to be damned. I almost feel like this is a RCS, uh, you know, like having to swallow it and do RCS because China made them and to kind of, you know, also have a good excuse that iMessage shouldn't be regulated. It's almost like out of spite. They're like, you know what? Unicode, you too. We're going to, we're going to, we're going to generate emojis. We're going to put them in line and it's going to just look like absolute nonsense to all the Android users out there that they're chatting with, but you can tap them back. Sorry. I interrupted. That's all right. No. Genmojis man. Well, I like to tap back. I'm a big tap back kind of guy. I'm a huge tap backer. You do a type back all the time. It's good stuff. But you always said you take that sentence out of context. Okay. You have to always decide like, well, how do I feel about this? You know, is it a thumbs up? Is it a heart? Is it a thumbs down? Is it a ha ha? Is it a bang bang or is it a question mark? And it's like, you know what? Sometimes it's none of those things. And now it could be an anthropomorphic sheep holding his nose. Exactly. Which is, you know, I don't know. I kind of like the limitations. You know, I'm excited about advancements, but I kind of like the limitations of tap backs because you can't go crazy with it. There's a spectrum there, a defined spectrum, but going crazy is what we do when we talk to people, you know, and we're like having fun in a text chat or something. Like, come on, throw an anthropomorphized sheep in there. Let me ask you a question. Do you tap back your own messages? Have you ever like sent a message and then tapped back your own? Because I have. Was that a question or a confession? Quickly turn into a confession. It's both. Well, you didn't answer in time, so I wanted to put it out there that I'm on team tap back myself. I went back in my timeline. I was total recalling. I don't have the plus PC part yet. I don't think so. I don't think I would do that. I think I do have a modicum of etiquette, you know? So what kind of give me an example of a tap back to your own message? I'll give you a perfect example. So I shared something with somebody we were having, you know, back and forth and talking and whatnot. And then I shared something that was funny. And it could have been taken as potentially not funny. I see. Because like conversation, right? And so to be clear that I meant it as funny, I just tapped back with. Haha. All right. That's a good move. I'll give you, you know, I was like, you know, I want to just throw a JK in there afterwards. That's laughing at your own joke, Adam. Yeah. You're kind of ha ha and yourself

kind

of. But then they also ha ha. Yeah. But what if they hadn't? What if they question marked it? What if they thought it wasn't funny and then they're like, oh, he's fishing. Well, then if they would have question marked it, I would have then pressed a hold and replied directly to my existing message.

And

then I said, what's with the question mark? What's the question mark, man? And then I would tap back that with a, with a question mark itself to just emphasize the fact that I've got questions now. What if you could have just added a picture of like an animated JK that just was generated for you and just slap a sticker on there. JK. Just kidding. And now you'll have genmoji. You could have tapped back with like a ha ha, like of your face. You know, I'm not a big fan of like GIFs, GIFs, moving images in messages. Really. I'm just not when somebody like sends me an animated meme or whatever. I'm just like, hide that thing. Delete it. Get it out of here. Unless it's out of the message stream. Yeah. I wanted to get it gone and I'll tap and hold that thing and delete it. Okay. I feel like I feel like that's radical. Yeah. That's that's I want to say that's radical, but at the same time when they demoed the genmoji and the tap backs with any emoji, right? I was personally offended when, and just viscerally upset when they took those original five tap backs that are grayscale and then made them color. And I was like, Oh, that's just garish. Like I think that the tone mapped, like, you know, grayscale monotone original subtle, tasteful, right? Maybe not too much pizazz. Just you wanted them to do that with the whole gamut. You wanted them to write a monotone set of emoji. Well, I guess if it takes iOS 18 to color tint your app icons, maybe by iOS 36, I can color tint my

tap

backs or need that extra GPU for that. I think they need one more GPU. I am down with a genmoji though, generally, because I think that's kind of cool. They've actually, I'm assuming like they've frameworked it in such a way that they can generate new ones that aren't, that never existed before. And I think that's kind of a positive for humanity because like, why not just infiltrate the, the lexicon with more, more? Yeah. Why not just, yeah. And I think they call that slop, don't they? Yeah, that's kind of slop. Okay, friends, it's time to monitor your crons. Simple monitoring for every application. That is what my friends over at Chronitor does for you. Performance insights and uptime monitoring for cron jobs, websites, APIs, status pages, heartbeats, analytics checks, and so much more. And you can start for free today. Chronitor .io, check them out. Join 50 ,000 developers worldwide from Square, Cisco, Johnson & Johnson, Monday .com, Reddit, Monzo, and so many more. And guess what? I monitor my cron jobs with Chronitor and you should too. And here's how easy it is to install and use Chronitor to start monitoring your crons. They have a Linux package, a Mac OS package, a Windows package that you can install. And the first thing you do is you run Chronitor discover. When you have this installed, it discovers all of your crons. And from there, your crons will be monitored inside of Chronitor's dashboard. You have a jobs tab. You can easily see execution time, all the events, the latest activity, the health status, the success range, all the details when it should run. Everything is captured in this dashboard. And it's so easy to use. Okay, check them out at Chronitor .io. Once again, Chronitor .io. We discussed Justin Searle's extensive use of the Apple Vision Pro. Now here we are like six months in. Oh yeah. And we said that when you come on, we're going to talk to you about it. Right. And so I've got my notes. A good time. Let's do it. Good call. I forgot about that. Do you want to talk about my Vision Pro Life first or do you want to talk about the new stuff that they announced? Let's talk about your Vision Pro Life. All right. So out of frame, I used to have a very sterile background here in my office. I'm on a green screen right now, just in case you want

to

put me someplace hilariously. We have so many options right now. Right. But behind there, I've got a, I've got a knockoff Eames chair that I've kind of turned into my battle station for, I sit down comfortably in the, in the lounger. I've got a, like a Velcro, like a command stripped, like the, the battery pack for the Vision Pro is behind me behind my head. And so the Vision Pro is kind of just always sitting there in the, in the chair. And then I've got my M3 MacBook Air that I pair with it. And so pretty much all computing that is more than five, 10 minutes is I sit in the chair, I put on the headset, I open the laptop, and then I wait a way too long period of time for one or the other to be comfortable with screen sharing the Mac virtual display starting up. And then once that starts up, I make it, the default size is way too small. I make it way too big. I push it out a little bit and then I start some music. And then that's typically like, that's my work environment. And that's been pretty much every day that I've been working since the Vision Pro launched. It has apps. Vision Pro can do other things too with, you know, you watch movies on planes and stuff. But for me and my purposes, I just use it as a way to have a really, really good monitor that is super large in an environment where it's easy for me to focus. And also in a way that doesn't contribute to any of my neck or back pain and posture issues that I tend to have when I sit at a computer for a long time. So that's, I guess, just to set the table, that's how I typically use the Vision Pro. And it's worked really, really well for me. It wouldn't work all for everybody, right? Like some people, their eyes don't work super great with the screens. It doesn't feel super sharp. But for me, I experience almost no latency. It feels very sharp for me. I actually learned a couple of pro tips since last time we talked about all this, like Adam Lizagor from Sandwich. I started corresponding with him and chatting with him a little bit. Actually, he just launched an app yesterday called Theater. That's an app where you can have theater -like experiences with Vision Pro as a follow -up to his television app, where you can put little televisions in your room and watch YouTubes and stuff on them. It's super cool stuff. If you're interested in, like, if you follow John Gruber or Daring Fireball, it's going to live stream in the theater app exclusively tonight at 10 p .m. Eastern and 7 Pacific, which I think is really... Sorry, tonight is Tuesday. So by the time you're listening to this, it's over. It's over. He missed it. Sorry about that. You'll catch the replay. But that's pretty cool in, like, spectral video. Adam turned me on to a tip. I think they called it, like, Open Face System. If I wanted to say Open Face Sandwich, I guess that's his company name. It's like open system use of the Vision Pro where you, like, take off the light shield. So I already have, like, a different kind of strap that's more comfortable that I have, like, a 3D -printed adapter for, because the two straps it comes with aren't really comfortable for hours of use on end. And it uses the top, just like your headphones here, like, uses, like, the crown of your head, the top of your head for weight distribution. Wearing the Vision Pro, you just take off the light shield. And so, like, the goggles are sitting, you know, a couple inches in front of your eyes. So you still get all your peripheral vision. And that's honestly, like, kind of more the promise of what Apple was going for in the first place where it starts to feel like goggles that are augmented with, like, pretty big screens in front of you. And additionally, like, you know, you don't get, you know, any weird lines around your face. It doesn't feel sweaty because you're getting plenty of airflow in there. So that's, it looks really silly, I'm sure. I'm sure I look just like, Becky walks in and she chuckles every time, multiple times Has she ever tried to sneak up on you and, like, punch you in the gut or something? Well, now that I don't have the light shield on, she's way harder. You ever seen the movie Lawnmower Man by any chance? I have not. Oh, gosh. I saw it, like, when I was a kid. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of that, but they're on their belly in this case. And they're kind of like, they have the goggles on, they're kind of flying, in virtual, they're flying. But, like, when you're looking at them, they're just sort of, like, wobbling as human beings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I almost wonder if you might seem like a version of that, but flopped, like, on your back, right, instead of on your belly. Or kick back, at least. Can we get Becky to do some, take some video, you know, while you're acting? Sure, yeah. Just so we can get an idea. Just a homework assignment. Yeah, I mean, if she can just go to work on that, that'd be great. I guess transition, well, do you have any questions about, because I know you guys, I enjoyed listening to you talk about my blog post about this and how. You listened? All right, all right. Okay, good. No, it was a fun conversation. I told him that we talked about him, so that's how you get Justin on board. Right, I was, I was curious if he would actually listen back. So I don't think then I was as clear as I am now, you explaining it, your posture. Because I had assumed, like, you were sitting in so many shape or form. Maybe I gapped that part of your article. I don't know. Maybe it was bad writing. Fair, fair. Quite possible, yeah. But you explained the posture. It seems like you're using gravity to your advantage then, to reduce the weight of it on your body. So it sounds like you kind of, like, hacked your way to a, maybe a more comfortable way to use the Apple Vision Pro. Way more like those chairs in The Matrix, right, where they jack in. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it seems like that. Or you're at a dentist. That's probably a more natural example. Do you ever, do you ever doze off? I haven't, but it's, I don't know, like, I'm sure that there are some social psychologists out there who'd say, like, you know, if you're leaning forward, you're more likely to get angry and stuff. And I will say that a lot of my angrier content, I was leaning forward pretty hard. And nowadays I'm, I'm way more zen. Yeah, you're leaning back and relaxing. Yeah.

Well,

I'm curious about, if you can explain more clearly the gap in front of your eyes. So it sounds like you can see around your peripheral, like you do have that. Do you feel any eye fatigue over time? Do you feel like you're, how your eyes work or just generally, like, I don't know, your eyebrow, eye area has experienced different feelings, whether it's just your skin or if it's your literal eyeballs trying to focus, whatever it might be? If you have the light shield on, which you should have, because that's how the product is designed, I'm not necessarily recommending you go shieldless, but totally go shieldless. Like, if you've got one of these, give it a try. If you've got the light shield on, yeah, you'll probably get a little sweaty. The thing generates a lot of heat, but it's really good at pushing that heat up. Like, I never feel it. I guess if I had bangs, I would feel it. But, you know, I'm blessed to not have too much hair up front. It feels like you're wearing ski goggles, right? The field of view isn't super -duper wide, and so after a certain amount of time in that, it can feel a little bit isolating. The pass -through video, though, is super -duper good, and so you, in general, still feel like you're in your room. You still feel like you're around. If you get up and start walking, then all of a sudden the motion blur is pretty bad because it's not really great at motion, and so then that can be a little bit nauseating if you're trying to walk around while you use it. For long stretches, when I don't have the light shield on, it's super -comfortable, and I could rock it pretty much all day. The only thing that I notice is when I do finally take it off, my eyes will have acclimated to thinking that the pass -through video is real life. It's like when you're going through your photo library on your phone, and you get to one of those HDR photos, and suddenly everything else looks really dim, but that sun looks really bright. The main thing in the photo isn't actually dimmer. It's just that the contrast with the other bright stuff around it is so much brighter that it makes it look dim. So when I take my headset off sometimes at the end of the day, I'll just have a little moment of like, holy ****, real life is quite bright. That throws me off a little, but fortunately, no real vision issues. I get my sunlight, I get my exercise, I try to focus on the distance. I'm not super -worried about it causing any real eye strain.

Yeah.

Well, that would be my concern, because you're using it hours, right? Too much. Right. Well, it's the way you use it as if you sit down to a computer traditionally, but you're not. You're sitting down, or actually you're laying down, and you're putting your Apple Vision Pro on, and you're going to town with the whole screen pairing, et cetera. And you're there for a session, two, three, four hours, or longer, potentially, if you can handle it right. Right. And that's where I think I begin to think, well, there's probably going to be some unknown, potentially unintended consequences long -term that we're just not aware of yet, and you're the guinea pig in so many -sheet reform. Yeah, that's a great patient zero. I think I shouldn't undersell the ability to just like, if you got the battery in your pocket or whatever, you can stand up. I've got a standing desk right here. I'll push my monitor back, and I'll stand at the desk while also working with the same kind of screens in front of me. So the fact that it's like a 140 -inch monitor that you can take anywhere that only weighs three pounds is really nice. I'll work from the balcony sometimes. I'll move around. Honestly, the only thing I'd really improve is the fact that to run macOS apps, I need to have a Mac with me, right? It seems silly. It seems like I should just be able to hold a keyboard and do all the same stuff. It's got an M2 in it. It's fast enough. So that seems like, I don't know. I hope that they, someday in some future world, have this. But I can't really complain. They need a Mac Mini kind of style thing to pair up with rather than a full -on. Just macOS in there. Yeah, or just put macOS in there, right? Now you sound like an iPad user. That's what most iPad users really just want at the end of the day. It's exactly like the iPad. This device is amazing. I wish it just had macOS on it. It could just be an app. Yeah, with some adjustments, of course. But yeah. Yeah. Well, I wonder, because most of the smarts in the device are in the goggles, right? It's not in the battery pack. So I'd imagine you want distance potentially between the human, less weight, stuff like that. I know the iPad is pretty light, but still yet, it's kind of flat and bigger than the goggles are. So I imagine they'll probably have to have some sort of accessorized version of

the

computer. I mean, it's already got an M2 in it. And it's got a fan. Yeah, what else do you need? RAM? You need storage? Does it have both of those? I'm stupid when it comes to Apple Visual. 512 gigs of storage and 8 or 16? I would guess 8 gigs of RAM. You could put the storage in the battery pack or something. I mean, they can get fancy with it. Anyways. We're still in version one. Well, to that point, what's the new stuff that's going to make at least you and the 12 other people using this? Right, exactly. So that's better. I guess who we should really be speaking to other than potential consumers of the vision pros, anyone who's got theirs in the box and whether they should pull it out of the box. You know, it's collecting dust. One, they have fake spatial video or fake space bake. Okay. Currently, you can take a spatial photo. Okay. But no one does that. He just got mad at himself. If you click on the side button on the goggles, but now you can take any photo in your library and through the magic of ML, it can separate subject and depth mask and stuff and create a spatial photo. And if you've never used a vision pro before, a spatial photo or a spatial video is sort of got this shadow box effect where you can kind of peer around the edges. And as you move your head, you can sort of see different angles. So a jury is out on whether that looks any good. It would be inventing new information from nothing. So

it

probably looks silly. Does the current thing look good? Like, do you appreciate those? So one time I accidentally took a spatial photo of like my feet, you know, like, just imagine yourself lying in this chair. You take a thing and say, oh, it captured a thing. And then like later on, I opened the photos app and it happened to open in a large format to that photo. And I thought those were my feet. Right. Cause I was in the same position. It tricked me into, yeah. Almost real life. But from a megapixels perspective, like these are potato cam, iPhone one equivalents. They're very low resolution. They're not the 12 megapixels that you'd get from a phone. So we'll see how that goes. The next ones. Why would you want to do this though? Why would you care about like taking an existing photo? What is the benefit to seeing it differently? I suppose like, and it's not real, so it's faking it. So like you have a 2d photo, you know, you probably took. If it can trick the eye though, who cares? I think it's a parlor trick. I think they were able to do it and people like the spatial effect. Sure. So they figured why not? Hey, that's, that's just the first thing they showed. They got fine with it. Let them keep going. It's going to get better or maybe not from here. Well, hang on a sec. I want to go one layer deeper on this. So this reminds me of this psychological thing that

studies

have done this. I don't know how to describe, you know, the setting, but essentially you would have a psychologist, you would have a patient or a subject and that subject is sitting on a table or sitting at a table, like any sort of normal desk with their arms able to sit up on the table. And they've hidden one of their arms, but the, in, in place of the arm, they've put a fake arm that looks and is sitting in the same position as their arm. And they, and the doctor or the whoever's conducted this experiment will stroke the arm and like massage. And the brain will begin to think that is theirs. And then out of nowhere, they take this knife and they whack it and they scream as if it's their own arm being chopped off. That's what this reminds me of is this whole, like you just said, you thought they were your legs, right? What if something like something somehow like happened into those legs? You're like, ah, my legs. Yeah. Like what if inside the photo, like something chopped your photo leg off? Would you have felt it? Do you think Justin, would you feel that if we were talking about like the pass through video, if, if the pass through video, which you're, like I said, you get really accustomed to over the course of minutes and hours, if suddenly that started lying to you. Right. And like, like a horror movie stuff flying and whatnot. If the question is, could what happens in the pastor video be literally terrifying? The answer is definitely yes. If the question is whether or not, if you poke my virtual leg, will I feel literal pain? I think I have to leave that to the scientists. I'm not sure. I think you should try it. I should try it because I think you will feel the pain. Well, yeah, you could be, you could be your own scientist. All right. I mean, I'll build an app to simulate this and see. We're already giving Becky some homework. We just add this to her list. Yeah, sure. Other features gestures. So there's a couple of gestures that they're adding right now. There's not really any, they're similar to the gestures. If you used a quest two or three with the, the hands, hands only mode, no controllers where, you know, you put your hand out and like the, the home, they don't call it a home screen, but like the, the basic home apps will pop out. That's nice. The another thing is you flip your hand down and on like, I don't know, it was like wrist or thumb. You'll see the time as well as a control center. I want to say, I'm going to be able to get into control center from there. Why that's really nice is currently the gesture to get to control center. I haven't heard this documented much online, the way to get into control center, which is what you need to do to start a Mac virtual display session from the vision pro or, you know, adjust the audio, just like you normally want to use control center for you roll your eyes into the back of your head. And then with that, because you have to keep your head stationary, but relatively your eyes need to go up towards the top. And then that creates a little like triangle disclosure. And then you, and then you, you pinch to click and then that opens control center. And for me, it's really tricky because for whatever reason, I always want to move my head up, but then the disappears. So the fact that I'll be able to just like flip my flip my hand and get to control center faster that way, because a lot of things are more than other platforms. It feels like control centers, the answer to a lot of questions. Like especially around audio and getting, you know, your AirPods synced and stuff. You don't have some other menu bar to work from. So that looks good. The, they had one thing, this is one of those, they didn't have very many of these, but I think this was just only on the title slide at the end, wrap up for vision. Oh, S two. They had a little tile there that said recent guest user. And I think what that is, is spouse mode. Because recent guest current guest user, if you want to activate that, it forgets who the person is the minute that they first take off the headset. So I've had people to, to demo the device. Okay. Put it on. They, they put it on, it takes them through the whole, like a pinch, calibrate the display by pinching all these targets, do three rounds of that. Finally do it. They get through all this, they set it up, they've adjusted the IPD between the headset. And then, then they're like, okay, cool. Or like they, they, they pull up the headset to ask me a question for a second and then they put it back on and then immediately it starts the whole wizard over again. And so if, you know, let's say I want to show one of these spatial videos or spatial photos to Becky right now, she'd have to go through that wizard each and every time she put the thing on her head. So I think this recent guest user, if I had to guess is going to provide a way to have like known people, or maybe the most recent person, at least be able to use the device in that guest mode without having to reconfigure, which if you've never used this, it sounds very pedestrian, but like, it really is the difference between like, I was kind of terrified they'd announce a photos feature that was so great. Becky would want to buy one for herself again and then return it again. She, she bought one initially and it was just not for her. So the fact that I'll be able to like show her photo stuff or she'll be able to use it for photos purposes on her own. Yeah, that made me happy. Can we pause there for one second? I have one question about this. Dive in. I haven't paid attention to this. They may have marketed this and I don't know, but you mentioned Becky and mentioned that she had one and she took it back and I'm imagining that you all are pretty close proximity wise to each other. And emotionally. Yeah, but in many ways, I'm sure. What's the experience like if you wanted to do this photos experience where you're in your own Apple Vision Pro and she's in her own Apple Vision Pro, can you sort of have a shared experience where you're sort of like augmented together in a way to like make the photo viewing experience cooler?

Cause

that's kind of interesting. That's actually one of the, one of the things they announced for Vision OS 2 is that SharePlay is coming to photos and allowing exactly that. And then in one of the demos you can see it's a person and then space ghost friend of theirs on their right, both looking at one photo and commenting, oh, she looks this or that. So answer is yes. And in fact, I have done SharePlay with a few people now, like my friend Aaron Patterson, Tenderlove. He and I did when, when the personas, the spatial personas, this is a new thing that launched about a month and a half ago when that came out. Now you're not just in a little box of a computer generated person, you're a floating head of a computer generated person with hands and things. That was the first time I'd ever really used SharePlay for anything because I don't have any need for it on iPhone, iPad. I don't want to like, you know, watch an Apple TV with somebody simultaneously typically, but SharePlay where you're like another person's persona is brought in and now you can play a board game together or you can watch a movie together, or you can now in like with photos, actually look at, look at photos together interactively. They also have like free form, you know, the, the whiteboarding app and stuff or keynote. I think, I think I almost made me, it makes me wonder whether or not SharePlay was being developed with this in mind and then COVID happened. And then they rushed it out the door and kind of forgot about it for a few years because it never really made much sense to me as a feature outside of the context of like, you know, initial pandemic. But yeah, it's a, it's a cool experience. Aaron and I were typically not like blown away by this kind of stuff, but I remember after playing a game and watching a short video where like, he was like, that was cool. We should totally do that again. Yeah. This idea of shared experiences to me is, is super cool. Obviously. Cause like I like other humans generally, but like watching TV together is, is kind of cool. But Jared and I were talking about, what was the film we were talking about watching Jared? Oh yeah. Silicon Valley. We were talking about, I had this idea. I was like, we should buy a, like, it was, I don't know, a stupid Seattle idea. We were scooting around Seattle and I was like, we should buy Apple vision pros and like have a whole separate podcast. It's just you and I like a mystery 9 ,000. What is that? What is that TV show that like MST 3000? Yeah. Yeah. And which one of you is Crow and which one of you is Tom Servo? That's up to our non viewer slash listener. I didn't know what you'd call them. But I was thinking we can watch Silicon Valley together via Apple vision pros and it would be kind of a thing. Like it would be a shtick almost, you know, it would have to be give us a reason to have a business expense for the Apple vision pros. Maybe have some on, you know, there's the good part of the idea. You know, some, some, some good experience with it. Maybe we can kick back like Justin is doing our podcasting or whatever. But I was thinking that'd be kind of cool. But this idea of doing things together like Plex, I'm a big user of Plex in my household and it has this feature called watch together. And I just wonder why this idea hasn't caught on more because I would totally watch a movie of somebody that's somewhere else. And maybe like you have the pause where you're like, hey, I got to go to the bathroom. Cool. Okay. Well, let's pause. I'll go to the bathroom too. But you're not in the same room or like you and Beck, you're in the same room. And that's cool that you can maybe watch some photos together. But you can also like you had done with with Aaron Patterson, Tenderlove, Dispr, you're somewhere else, right? You're not, you're not in the same zone at all. This whole shared experience may have been like a COVID thing, but I still think it's kind of like a, we're in a, you know, geographically distributed world. It makes sense to have more and more things that are together, but separate geographically. It feels real. Like I was just traveling, he was also, he goes to Kaigi every year. And so like we, we spent a couple of days just traveling around Okinawa together. And the spatial persona experience that we've had felt more like being together in person than it felt like being on a phone call. Right. Cause we're typically over a long distance. And I think that's, I agree. I think that's super duper valuable. And when you ask why doesn't the TV stuff catch on, it's like, well, you need a microphone. You would need a camera. You need to be like a tile in a window or something. Whereas when you're in the spatial setting, the videos in front of you, it's no, no smaller than it otherwise would. It's not obstructed. The person's just on your right or on your left. Or when you're playing a game, the game board is exactly like, it's not obstructed. The person's just on the other side of you. I think that because nothing is lost in transmission and there's not any sort of like extra equipment that you would need to make it a good experience. It's not fiddly. The UX design of this definitely has many, many challenges to make it believable, enjoyable. And like, I guess if I was watching, you know, a show, let's say like Silicon Valley with Jared through the watch together mode, whether it's, you know, through Plex or something else, if he kept having to pause or get interrupted, I'd be like, you're kind of ruining my experience. So maybe that is not a good thing. But maybe the Apple Vision Pro is where you kind of get it because you're sort of a bit more focused, a bit more intentional with it being, you know, isolated, less distractions around. Now, that being said, kids can come in the room and be like, Jared, hey, or whatever, Adam, hey. And the experience is interrupted. I like the idea though. That is cool. Again, we're still in version one and it's already pretty great. So I could see five, six years from now, this feeling more normal. Have we built up enough to finally talk about the ultra wide virtual Mac display? Is it, are we there yet? One more thing. Okay. So there's, there's two annoyances, two big annoyances from like an ergonomics perspective to trying to use the spatial computing for computing, which is one, when you're in an immersive environment, meaning like you've, you're not looking at the pass through video, you're on the moon or in Yosemite or something, and you're holding a magic keyboard, an Apple branded magic keyboard in your lap. That, that keyboard is invisible. So you cannot, unless you're an amazing touch typist, you'd be surprised how often you're finding yourself wanting to look at the keyboard, especially when it's assigned your lap loosely, you know. Vision OS 2, apparently for magic keyboards and magic keyboards only will punch that through the, it'll identify it and punch it through the immersive environment. So you'll be able to actually see the keys. That's one huge thing. The other big win is for whatever reason you can, you can pair a Bluetooth trackpad to vision OS, but not a mouse. And it seemed to suggest like app, we all know Apple prefers track pads to mice, but it seemed to suggest like Apple saying, no, the future is no mice allowed. Apparently vision OS, OS 2 will let you sync a Bluetooth mice. So apparently it was just an oversight version, version one thing. If you're a mouse person,

that'll

work. All right. So now we can get to the thing. So tell me all about the, the ultra, the ultra wide. Uh, did you not watch the keynote? Oh, I did. I did, but I've been talking too much. Okay. Well, it's, uh, I don't know if you saw, but it's ultra wide. It's virtual and it's a Mac display. Damn. He's good. That's it. That's what a pro. That is a summary that I think I can, uh, get on board with. That's all you gotta know. People were hoping to see an announcement. When I say people, I might be meaning like vision pro other people that are using this. Yeah. Right. In the subreddit. Right. And that subreddit is not active enough to, to give me a lot of hope at the moment. Person was hoping. Yes, me, Jim and his three sock puppet accounts are all up voting. Um, the idea that you would have like an X server implementation where like the Mac would act as a window server, you know, all of our computers have windows servers on them. That's how they work. Like the design abstraction that they use, but like the server client thing isn't actually used because it's all local host. It's like, yeah, I'm a window server serving up all these windows on your screen locally, but the technology was invented, you know, with X and so forth. So that like, you know, a mainframe could be running now. Now I'm a little bit over my skis because it's been 20 plus years since I've even thought about this seriously. The server could run the window and then the client machine could just display that window. And that's what I would love is like, if, if, you know, imagine you just had your doc in front of you virtually instead of the full Mac screen. And I, when I clicked anything on the doc, it would open a native vision, no as window of that application, all rendered client side, but, but specified via this protocol back to the Mac. And if that ever happens, that would be super cool. Cause then you could have infinitely many Mac screens and you could play some wherever you want around you arbitrarily. I think the, the reason it's not a priority for Apple is because they're trying to make native vision, no S apps, a thing first. And that's not going super great. You know, like they're all just iPad apps. They're not, they don't let you do the things that Mac OS lets you do. And so therefore, like, I don't think that's going to pick up steam as much. So, but I would still love to see it. I'd love to be able to just pull in Mac applications, just like I'd love to be able to run Mac OS in vision. Oh, as I feel like vision OS is really hobbled by the piss poor app ecosystem of what's available in vision OS and the current developer sentiment of it, not real, of it just being another iPad, you know, I don't think it's going to change anytime soon. And to that ends the ultra wide that they've announced, which is they framed it as the equivalent of two 4k displays. And so the rumors leading up to this is like, oh, it'll let you do two displays. And I did not like this idea because the reason I don't run two displays in real life is I don't want that seam in the middle of now I've got to like organize these. And it just didn't occur to me that of course Apple could just make it one contiguous display. And so you'll get this nice big ultra wide wraparound. And I think there's some intermediate pretty wide. I think it's like normal 4k. And then there's like a pretty wide and then there's an ultra wide. I don't know what that looks like. There's three step changes here. No ultra wide max. Yeah. Ultra wide max. There's a full 180 degrees. Yeah. So that's it. That's it. It's gotta be wide, max wide and ultra wide to get the ordering. Yeah, exactly. I think that'll be really great because I'll be able to see more and I'll be able to move more stuff around. And why not? Because you've got infinite space around you. But it almost felt my first reaction was like, this is almost an admission that having a little side card vision OS app, which is what I've been doing next to the Mac displays is not worth it. Like, like, like I would throw that overboard in the minute to get the ultra wide, just give me more Mac stuff because even just trying to context switch between a vision OS app and the Mac display is just enough friction that it's not worth it. Most of the time, which is, you know, it's got to be frustrating to Apple, right? They built this whole fricking operating system, this whole like app architecture and this whole way to do things. And it is really good. It's just like, there's not that much to do with it. Right. And so the more that people use this thing as just a glorified monitor, the less appealing and like the more that they invest in making that a nicer experience, the less appealing the app platform will be. So I think that, you know, that's probably the parting thought that I'd have looking at vision of us too, is like wondering, like in the near term future of the platform,

is

that what this is going to be? Some number of nerds are going to use this as a virtual Mac display. Other people are going to buy it because that demoed really well in the Apple store and then they're never going to use it. And meanwhile, all of that usage is going to be just enough to kind of keep Apple on their toes to develop the platform further until it actually is viable as like a mainstream consumer product. What they need is like some kind of a vision OS lounge, you know, like, you know, there's internet cafes. They should have an Apple vision pro cafe where you can just bring your laptop in. I just want to try your world for a few hours. You know, I don't want to live there. I don't want to buy a house. I live in Disney world. Come next time you guys have a trip. Do you live in celebration? No, I live just my house literally borders, Reedy Creek, but I'm on the East side. So I'm just a normal neighborhood full of most, I wouldn't say normal people full of people who live in Orlando, Floridians, Floridians, Florida men, Florida people. Yes. Well, I like this idea of this. I wonder if we can hypothesize a bit, if, if the vision pro can get lighter, if they removed all the smarts from it, like you had said with this unified centralized computer for the house that has many functions. It's got, you know, backups, it's got photo storage and this is stuff that maybe Apple is traditionally not for, but they do have lots of storage, but something that acts as like a, what a NAS would act as for a household, you know, photos, syncing, things like that. Like if they can begin to build this world and the Apple vision pro, whatever it is today shrinks in size, in footprint, in weight, et cetera, because you have this centralized with doing things. And maybe you still keep this Apple vision pro for when you're on the go. So there's still a need for one that computes, but generally when you're in a house, like you are, you don't really, the benefit of the compute in the thing is not necessarily good because you've got a Mac sitting over that you're just virtualizing. And all you really want is the visual appeal of what you're getting, not so much the compute. Cause that's kind of cool. Honestly, the rumor is that's how the product started or it was on that track. And then sir, Johnny, I've came and said, no, it's gotta be the computer's gotta be in the thing. Cause there was like a base station component as well. That was like, had to be on a wireless leash of a couple of meters or something. So I think that the product existed sort of in that vein for a while. Is there latency when you do the virtual stuff with your Mac? Is there, is that so traveling in Japan? I actually took this thing with me. I got a slightly bigger backpack than usual and I didn't get a special case. I just kept shoving it deep in there, shove it in, shove it in. My goal was I would like at the hotel at night, I would use the vision pro like I normally do my normal routine. What I found almost immediately is on wifi networks, you don't control if either the Mac or the vision pro is on a wifi network. And that wifi network is like a hotel wifi network. It's just like anything with MDNS or Bonjour protocol. It's like, it is a hostile environment to that kind of like the Apple peer to peer networking that, that, that things like to do. Right. Or disable how fast that, that protocol works. Right. How much, how much, how much bandwidth it can take up and so forth. And so the latency was so bad. It would often be, I'd press a key and then a one, two, three, and then, and then the, the letter would show up in most hotels that I just gave up after a while. And that was surprising to me because if you actually turn off the wireless NIC in both devices and they're neither are on a network, you can still use Mac virtual display and it works great. So it might be something that Apple can optimize around, but that was the only time that I've observed any sort of latency issues. Cause when I'm at home, it's flawless. I believe it's, you mentioned MDNS and I think the other one is IGMP snooping, AKA multicast filtering that you can enable or disable networks to make things that are like Apple ask do better across the subnets and whatnot. Yeah. What a bummer. So there is latency on networks you don't control, which kind of makes sense. Sucks, but makes sense. Hypothetically, I would be down with a centralized beefy Apple machine. In theory, I think since I'm such a fan of Linux and such a fan of like other things, I would probably be a fan of the idea, not the execution because I think Apple would like guard and hold too much. Like literally I would be the happiest person. Well, one of the happiest people ever, if Apple would come out in one of these WWDCs and say every future Mac or every Apple Silicon Mac ever will support installing Linux as well as Mac OS. Like if I can opt out of Mac OS and get Linux on a machine, that'd be cool. And if they have partnered with Ubuntu or whomever was like the Goliath that just enabled the future Linux desktop forever kind of idea is finally your idea. That'd be cool. Adam is wishing this or is he predicting this? It's both, I think. I think it's both. I think Apple would have some major plus on their side if they came out and said we create the best hardware, obviously, with how much effort they do. They believe that. And they obviously create some of the best operating system software out there. We're all loving it, of course, right? And they mirror those two things together. But they said, you know what? The world does have one other operating system out there that's free and open source in every way, shape, and form that free can be. And we want to support that too on our hardware. I think that would be so absolutely cool. They probably sell a lot more hardware because there's people out there buying other hardware that is not so much subpar because there's a lot of great players out there. I got a System76 t -shirt I often wear on shows. Big fan of them. Have it on a machine, but I play with them. I respect anybody like driving Linux forward, especially the desktop, because it hasn't arrived fully yet. There's a lot of people who use it, but it's just not here. I think the Linux desktop might actually arrive if they did something like this. Because Apple devices are just so ubiquitous, and they really are some of the best hardware ever. If they would support Linux by default as well as Mac OS, either or, not some sort of in the middle, it'd be amazing for PR. It'd be amazing for Linux. It'd be amazing for the Linux desktop we've all been thinking may actually arrive this year, which hasn't. And I think you'd see a lot of people choosing Linux in certain scenarios. Now, that being said, I got there by saying I'd be excited about this centralized Mac machine that powers my whole house and my vision non -pros and my vision pros or whatever. How are they prioritized this thing? In theory, only because I still love the freedoms of Linux. I still love to install packages and do different things. So maybe the hardware. I'd like the hardware, but not the software. I don't know. You drew a very... Your prediction drew a very rare double eyebrow raise simultaneously from Jared and I. Same time? Jared, I'm curious. Let's clip that. Let's clip that. The double eyebrow. Okay. What are your thoughts then, as I pontificated and wished at the same time? My thoughts? I think it's a nice wish. I just don't think there's any reason for Apple to do that. It doesn't play their strengths. They don't need the PR. Okay. Here would be one reason, although macOS is not the bastion of the regulation against Apple, you know, it would be if there were reasons of a monopolistic or anti -competitive practices that were required, that were causing regulators to come after them as they are, for instance, in the app store, as they are, for instance, on iOS. Like if those things were happening at the macOS level and this somehow won them brownie points with regulators, that would be the one reason why I think they might consider

to

do something like that. But otherwise, I just don't see any reason why they would ever do that. I agree. That's why it's more of a wish than a prediction, because I agree. I think what you just outlined would be one of the reasons why they would do it, potentially the only reason why they would do it, because they don't gain much really at all. And it just kind of sucks when you get to certain obsolescence with a Mac hardware and you can't install the latest macOS operating system. And then like this machine is still amazing. I take great care of all my machines. I got super old machines that... You can run Linux on them, right? You just want Apple to like rubber stamp it or what? Well, so all the workarounds with Linux, especially on Apple Silicon is a workaround. I haven't caught up. So I could be mistaken to some degree, but they're not blessed by Apple. They're workarounds from the dev community who love the hardware and want to see Linux live there. Now, older Intel machines, yes, but as soon as you introduce that T1 or that T2 chip, whatever that additional chip was, it caused issues. And Linux, you could install it, but you would have issues. And you'd have to do workarounds and install non -free open source packages. And you have to do different things to get Linux to live there and operate there. So they just don't have native support for it. You can. I've got older 2004 Mac minis I've converted from the two and a half spinning hard drive to an SSD. I've gutted it, put an SSD in there. It's got enough RAM. It's got four cores. And I've run Proxmox on that. And they make nice little when Raspberry Pis were not available, Raspberry Pi replacements, because you can install Proxmox and do a bunch of cool stuff that you could not do on a Raspberry Pi. And I've never really had any issues with them, but they're old. Four cores. You can't expand it beyond that, but they do give it life. And I think the thing I'm camping on is more like once the device that I've taken care of has become, to Apple's eyes, obsolete and they don't let me install the latest operating system, it kind of dies on the vine or for the most part becomes less and less useful, but still has so much value to give. And if they would bless that with Linux, I could hand that down to a young person who's just learning because it's got no value to me as a hardware. But as a software standpoint, I can't give them the latest Mac OS. So give them Linux, the latest version of it. It would be a green argument, right? They say that there is reuse is better than recycling.

I

think it's more likely that when we use versus recycle. Yeah. When a device becomes obsolete, software update will update it. And then on the next boot, the person will just say, Hey, your machine is obsolete. Here's a coupon for 10 % off at apple .com. And then just inoperate the computer after a certain point, because I feel that way anyway with Apple's operating systems. I have an original iPhone edge sitting in the drawer and maybe an old iPod touch, but like the last version of the OS that it could run is so old now that like you can go to zero websites because it doesn't have HTTPS, you know, SSL certs for, for anything. So you're right. Like you would basically need Linux after a certain number of years. On the note though, of like having the space station that you want. It's not just a Linux idea. It's like, it's a Unix idea and it's much older. And there's a, I got a pulled up the YouTube of a WWDC 1997 right after Steve jobs came back. Wow. He did this big Q and a, and it's an hour and 10 hour and change long Q and a, and a lot of it's about, you know, like open document format and stuff that nobody cares about anymore. But some of it was really about the gestalt of like computing as it was happening in Steve jobs, the guy who had just been running next for over a decade, his brain, as opposed to Steve jobs, the one who, who, you know, went back to Apple and made it all about hardware sales and product. And he made a couple of comments about how having that sort of client server nature of all of your documents. So nice. He's like, I'm at home and I can, you know, turn on my computer and then, or my, he's at Apple now. So he's, I think says iMac and he's like, no, I guess iMacs didn't exist. Anyway, I turn on my computer and my user directory is exactly the same as when I go drive into work because it's all synced in one central place. And of course that's like the sync became a four letter word, but like that was the dream that they were trying to implement with iCloud and kind of have, right? Like I've got a Mac studio here. I've got my M3 MacBook Air there. My, I sync my documents and desktop and most of my other files via iCloud. I mostly don't have to think about it. And so I think that was achieved, but it was really cool. And I think you might enjoy watching this video cause it's much more like Unix, Steve Jobs. And so from a spiritual alignment perspective, I think that you'd find a lot to like in all these, his attitude around a lot of the same, the same basic vibe. Yeah. We'll do that up and dropping the show notes if we can. Well, maybe we finish where we started, which was the land of the rising sun. Let me tell you about Asahi Linux. Is that how you say it? Justin Asahi? Asahi. Asahi Linux, which is an effort to port Linux to Apple Silicon Macs. We've been trying to get some Asahi Linux folks on the show. We've had many, many listeners say, please talk about this. And they just keep saying no, basically, or ignoring us. So if you are plugged into Asahi Linux and you could give us a plug into that community and get one of the lead leaders of the community to talk to us. Jared will send you a free case of Asahi beer. Yes. Of which I don't know if that's good. I hope that's good beer. It's great beer if you're in Japan. If you're what? If you're in Japan, although I think that if you find Asahi beer on draft in America, it's been imported. So that's how you know it's the real deal. Look out for that. But yeah, Asahi Linux seems to run well. I think a lot of the energy around Asahi Linux, if I'm not wrong, is that people are running Proton, the Steam kind of the equivalent of Steam's like game developer toolkit for being able to run Windows games on in a Linux environment. And so whether or not that's why you want to use Linux, it's at least, I think, given it some reason for existence. Yeah, it's a super cool project. And it's not just a distro. It's like bigger than distros or maybe like underneath a distro. The way they're doing it's like drivers and a bunch of low level stuff that will enable other distros or distros in general, such as Fedora, such

as

perhaps Ubuntu. I don't know. I haven't looked too close into it. Don't go installing it, by the way, because I said games could run in it. I'm saying that I think that a lot of development energy that could happen down the road and people are working towards it. But I don't think it's a yeah. So there may be one answer to Adam's wish is that project, you know, Apple may never rubber stamp it, but you can't stop the hackers from hacking. You know, their hackers are going to hack. Yes, always be hacking. Hack that stuff up there. I was aware of Asahi Linux. It's just I haven't had spare Apple Silicon hardware to test it on. I've only got one. All the new stuff. Next time you upgrade. Yeah, I will try it. When you get that iPhone 15 Pro Max, you know, you have your iPhone 14 Pro. That's not M. Silicon. That's A. But still obsolete. Good place to leave it, though. Rising Sun, Asahi Linux. I think I think, Jared, you you deserve points for the Segway. Thank you. Kudos. Well executed. What a pro. I thought it was a good a good tie back to the beginning of the show. So I agree with you. That was good by me. Let's just keep agreeing with Jared. And that's the show. That's just it. Jared, you're amazing. You're so good. Thank you. Was it like we are not worthy? Tell me more. That's right. Talking

big

fan. Good Wayne's World reference for one of the first times we are not worthy. For one of the first. Good stuff, though. Well, Justin, always good talking to you. Always good hearing. I think you're definitely a trailblazer when it comes to the ways to use the Apple Vision Pro. I know Jared and I talked about it on episode 40. It was very fresh and new in terms of like, wow, that's really an interesting way to use it. And like you're sticking with it. You're not a once and done. You're like knee deep steeped in this stuff and you're not quitting. Are you quitting? No, I mean, honestly, like this was for me overall. I know a lot of people are upset for various reasons. A lot of apps got Sherlocked. You know, shout out to Casey lists and call sheet like that. They didn't love this keynote, but I thought the keynote was great. I thought the platform State of the Union last night was great. I've been watching some sessions this morning from like the day one sessions. There's a lot of good stuff. It seems to me if you just rewind five years ago, like, well, yeah, iOS 13, right? Was the one that was just an absolute trash fire. Nothing was working. All those betas especially came in super hot. You know, they had to like delay. It wasn't like 13 .1. Like, so the iPad OS got delayed until, you know, like some hardware shipped and fundamentally the problem there was that you had different teams working on different versions of the app for different platforms. They didn't have like, you know, their kind of annual cadence locked in from a quality and milestones perspective. And now the Apple that we see today, it just seems like they are now that they're, they have the confidence to roll out features incrementally. This is a later this year, this is a 2025. This you'll see it in 0 .4 0 .5. I feel like they are firing on all cylinders as best that they've ever done so far. And so I can be confident like these features are going to ship. These APIs are going to be good. The quality will be good enough most of the time. And then of course, ironically Swift, they celebrated the 10 year anniversary of Swift in one of the, in the, in the state of the union last night. And then the very next slide was, and now we finally have a testing framework. So shows the Swift testing just now came out in the 10th year. So it shows Apple's priorities, but honestly, in terms of the Apple way of rolling, like it seems like they are, there's a lot to be whether you're a vision pro user or just like a general fan of their platforms. Like I think there's a lot of reasons to be optimistic right now. Well said. Good stuff. Well, friends, this has been fun. Yep. Bye friends. Bye. Goodbye. Change log. When you sign up for a century team plan and save yourself a hundred bucks. And thanks of course, to our beat freak in residence, the mysterious break master cylinder next week on the change log news on Monday, GitHub VP and deputy chief security officer Jacob DePriest on Wednesday and our old friend, Daniel Stenberg from the crew project on Friday. Have yourself a great weekend. Leave us a five star review. If you dig what we do and let's talk again real soon.