Natural born SaaS killers

Welcome to Changelog and Friends, a weekly talk show about thinking outside the Dropbox. Thanks as always to our partners at Fly.io, the platform for devs who just want to ship, build fast, run any code fearlessly at Fly.io. Okay, let's talk.

This is the year we almost break the database. Let me explain. Where do agents actually store their stuff? They've got vectors, relational data, conversational history, embeddings, and they're hammering the database at speeds that humans just never have done before. And most teams are duct taping together a Postgres instance, a vector database, maybe Elastic Search for Search. It's a mess. Our friends at Tiger Data looked at this and said, what if the database just understood agents? That's agentic Postgres. It's Postgres built specifically for AI agents, and it combines three things that usually require three separate systems, native model context protocol servers, MCP, hybrid search, and zero copy forks. The MCP integration is the clever bit. Your agents can actually talk directly to the database. They can query data, introspect schemas, execute SQL. Without you writing fragile glue code, the database essentially becomes a tool your agent can wield safely. Then there's hybrid search. Tiger Data merges vector similarity search with good old keyword search into a SQL query. No separate vector database, no Elastic Search cluster, semantic and keyword search in one transaction, one engine. Okay, my favorite feature, the forks. Agents can spawn sub-second zero copy database clones for isolated testing. This is not a database they can destroy. It's a fork. It's a copy off of your main production database, if you so choose. We're talking a one terabyte database, Fort in under one second. Your agent can run destructive experiments in a sandbox without touching production, and you only pay for the data that actually changes. That's how Copy on Write works. All your agent data, vectors, relational tables, time series metrics, conversational history lives in one queryable engine. It's the elegant simplification that makes you wonder why we've been doing it the hard way for so long. So if you're building with AI agents and you're tired of managing a zoo of data systems, check out our friends at tigerdata at tigerdata.com. They've got a free trial and a CLI with an MCP server you can download to start experimenting right now. Again, tigerdata.com.

What up nerds? So one of the things that we say often around these parts is the software world moves fast. And this week has been a great example of that. On Monday, when I shipped changelog news, I covered a tool called Clawdbot, that's C-L-A-W-D, bot. On Tuesday, when we recorded the conversation you're about to hear, it had been renamed to Multbot. Today, as I master and ship this episode to the world, it's been renamed again to OpenClaw. Turns out Multbot just didn't roll off the tongue. So you'll hear us struggle to say Multbot. A whole bunch in this episode, just run your brain's global find and replace subroutine, and hopefully it'll still all make sense.

Where should we begin?

Let's start at the start and take it away.

Okay.

My name is Simpson Bartholomew J.

Okay.

That's just the start of an old Simpsons rap.

Oh, I love that.

Oh yeah. I knew the second line.

Can you do it better than that? Give me the real thing. Is that your best version?

I'll start from the start and take it away. My name is Simpson Bartholomew J.

Okay.

I don't remember any of the rest.

Do you have a Bart imitation voice? Are you like Ariana Grande where she can imitate anybody, basically?

I'm a talentless hack.

Oh man.

I got nothing.

Can you? You know what? I don't even attempt, man.

I mean, either. That's why I just called myself a hack.

I can impress some things, but-

You're very impressive in general.

Yeah. I mean, when you're impressive, you don't have to be an impersonator.

That's right. Just be yourself.

That's right.

And you impress.

Well, thank you. Well, thank you.

Well, I was impressed by all that's been going on lately. Have you been impressed?

You know what?

Goodness gracious.

It really is an interesting time to be a software developer. I do have to say. It is uniquely interesting in so many ways. Just such a wild world we find ourselves in.

One of the things that have been going on is this Mac mini sale.

Oh, dang.

We've been selling Mac minis for Apple. It's not us. It's just developers been buying them because of Clodbot, not to be confused with Clodcode, which I guess was confusing enough that Clodbot was renamed. For posterity, Clodbot was spelled C-L-A-W-D. That's right. And I think it had to do with him having claws. There's like a whole lobster theme behind this thing. And I think it was like he had the claws. And so he was a Clodbot. And he got very popular at which point Peter Steinberger, who might be coming on the pod at some point.

Trying to make it happen.

The creator of Clodbot decided to rename everything. Trademark stuff, I can only assume. Anthropic said, hey, please rename this. Because at this point, Clod is pretty well established verbally, audibly with Anthropic, right?

Right.

Different spelling doesn't really matter. When you just say the word Clod, everybody thinks about Anthropic. So now it's Moltbot. So Clodbot molted. And why do we care? Well, because it seems like a pretty cool project. And one that has gotten a lot of people excited. I covered it on news this week. Because it'll do a bunch of stuff for you now. Full confession, I have not set this up. Me either. I have not set this up, gosh darn it.

You know, the list is long, Jared.

You got a list of stuff you wanna try, don't you?

Those AI things to play with, man.

I know.

I just can't keep up with the things to play with. And I want to though, I do want to. So that's my excuse, at least. The AI that actually does things, apparently.

That's right. It emails for you, it calendars, it home automates. All from your favorite chat app. So cool lobster theme. And people are doing all kinds of crazy stuff with this.

Well, not anymore. No more lobster theme. It's gone. It says here, clears your inbox, sends emails, manages your calendar, checks in for flights. Now this is something you've been upset a little bit about. And you can allude to further.

Don't check in my flights, man.

All from WhatsApp, Telegram, or any chat app you use. Now what a good, first of all, amazing copy, okay? Like when you make something, describing it. Because in your brain, you've got it, right? You've got all the details, you've got all the things that you're dreaming about for this thing. But then getting it out into a concise word, phrase, sentence, whatever you want to call this, right?

Yes.

That's the hard part. That's a beautiful two sentence. This is what it does scenario. So good job, Peter. On that front. Yes. In terms of Claude.

It's over with, man.

Claude's over. C-L-A-W-D.

No, it's Molt. Well, now it's Molt. Call it Moltie.

Well, you know, we have to go to the past to go to the future, right? You gotta be like, where'd you come from?

I just called it Claudebot in the news. And the next day, literally the next day, it got renamed.

Moltbot.

Molt. Because lobsters molt, I think. Is that when they lose their outer shell?

Yeah, I think so.

I only know this because of Futurama and Zoidberg. Zoidberg's always molting. Yes. That's the only reason I have any idea about lobster anatomy, otherwise I'd be clueless.

And I would imagine like any crustacean, when you don't have your crustacean, you are vulnerable to the elements.

Right, you're not crusty.

Yeah, you need that protective shell from the anthropics of the world.

Exactly, and now he's protected.

Now he's protected. Well, nakedly protected, he's molted.

Right, for what it's worth. I mean, it's just an open source project. So I mean, how protected can you possibly be?

Is it though?

It is.

Will it be?

What do you mean? Protected or open source?

Well, it's open source, but will it only be open source? It's just an open source project.

For now.

For now.

I mean, when things get this popular. So we should probably say like, the reason we're talking about it, even though we haven't played with it, is because everyone's talking about it because- It is. Other people are playing with it. Here's a few choice quotes from developers whom you may respect. This is from the Keatsay. I can't remember what his name is, but you know, he's on the internet as the Keatsay. And he's an opinioner. He says, create your own multbot, go in debt if you have to. I love the idea of this nerdy crab chilling in my attic in my Mac, on my Mac studio, just giving me, just giving me. I didn't pre-read that. I don't at least understand what that means at the end, but he's excited. He got you. Hey, Multi, give me something and it just gives you stuff, you know?

It's just giving you the stuff. You know, whatever I want, just give it to me.

Here's LLM Junkie. So, you know, he's showed his cards. That's right. But he says, this is the legit, the only agent slash model slash whatever you call this that I have seen that's actually funny. So apparently this thing's got a good sense of humor. Demillion says, a mega-corp like Anthropic or OpenAI could not build this. Literally impossible with how this thing works. Maybe that's speaking to the open source side of it. I don't know. LTZ Reno says, ah, I was trying to resist and now I can't stop talking and adding things to multbot.

Yeah, it gets addictive.

And I mean, I'm just grabbing quotes cause there's so many of them. There's probably honestly 300 on this page.

Well, that's a lot. Well, I mean, if you go to docs, D-O-C-S, not docs, docs.mult.bot slash, I guess automation might be the poem. Maybe it's just the docs. Just go to the docs. Just go to the docs, you can find them. I'm reading you all thinking like, where am I at here? I just landed here. But like this left sidebar, first of all, it is a well done documentation site thanks to Mintlify, that's how you say it, Mintlify. I love Mintlify. Service and open source, I believe you can self host Mintlify.

What is Mintlify, like a doc site?

Mintlify is a SaaS, soon to be dead. If we talk about SaaS is dying, we'll see. I believe you can self host Mintlify, but it is a documentation platform you can have as a service and I'm pretty sure you can self host it, pretty sure. I know that our friends over at Resend use it because that's how I learned about it because our friend Zeno is pretty well versed in cool tech out there and cool, I guess, soon to be dead SaaSes.

Yeah.

And there'll be, we'll get to that if we get to that, but I'm not trying to be negative here. That's the sentiment in the room. My gosh, here's the left hand sidebar of this Mintlify docs.molt.bot is just a plethora, a plethora of things you could do. Everything from like where you can deploy that, of course, the Mac mini, like you mentioned, Jared, Docker, Nix, deploying railway, render, North flank, tons of CLI commands in here. So onboarding, configuring, doctoring, dashboarding and uninstalling, why would you do that? Skills, of course. And then one of my favorites, cron. Like who doesn't love a good cron job, right?

All my cron jobs get five stars.

That's right. You can also have heartbeats, not just crons, but heartbeats, there's a difference. Very well done documentation. A lot, I mean, this is an exemplary example. Isn't that what that means, exemplary?

It might be redundant, but that's okay.

Sorry about that. It makes sense to me, okay? Follow me here. Exemplary example, I'm leaning into it.

You double down on it.

I'm doubling. Really well done documentation. Like this, I'm very envious of this level of documentation, which is no surprise given the fanfare reviews. When you have docs this good, it's gotta be good.

So there you go. No firsthand accounts here.

Speculation.

But lots of interesting skills you can install. I don't know, people are doing crazy stuff with this. Go to the website, find out for yourself. You can make it do all kinds of things. I'm still just happy with the coding bots, like just coding for me. I haven't gotten into like the automate the rest of my life bots quite yet.

Right.

I fear anything writing my emails, but I also embrace things helping me write emails faster. And so I'm tentatively excited. I did have a friend who read ChangeLog News, already texted me and said, yes, they bought a Mac mini already because of that. And have I set up Clodbot yet now called Moldbot? I was like, no, and I just let everybody know about it. I haven't tried it yet, but I am intrigued. So it's on my list. It's on my list.

I'm gonna buy a Mac mini too, Jared, but it's not because of Clodbot or Moldbot. It's because, well, you just want one. Well, you know, honestly, it's, you know, Tim, techno Tim and I, we just covered this on Friends most recently. Home Lab 2026 edition, it's fun, go deep with us. The thing he said was availability. I thought he was gonna talk about availability in terms of services. He was talking about hardware. Like you guys should buy one. Yeah, I mean, like you just-

That's what he means.

Good luck finding RAM at a price you actually wanna afford. Good luck finding GPUs at a price you wanna afford. And thankfully the Apple tax hasn't caught up to the bump of the hardware. And I assume there's still Mac minis that go around. And so you've got this, now I really wish the Mac mini was an M5 because I heard the M5 is so much faster and maybe that's coming soon. Maybe it's coming summertime, end of year, who knows? But I really do think that the Mac mini, given the availability of other hardware, RAM, CPUs, motherboards, you name it, it's all hard to come by. And all you're really trying to do anyway is potentially is get some level of GPU or massive RAM amount to use for inference of some sort. And so if Clodbot or Molt, sorry, I'm gonna keep calling that. If Molt bought, gosh, it's like saying Zulip. Get me upset. I just want some inference. I want it on my machine. Like I wanna have a good MacBook Pro of course, but I don't wanna overload my main dev machine to do stuff and my creator machine to do stuff. I want a dedicated machine for that. And GPUs are hard to come by and a Mac mini has pretty much all you need in one little package and it's, thermal density is good. All the dynamics are good. Power consumption is good. It's SIPs power, comparative to other solutions. So I mean, it makes total sense. And I wanna run it for an 8N or in this case Molt, but also just to run some transcripts, man. Run through some transcripts.

Burn them up. So it's also cheap to get into. I mean, $5.99 starter price. A lot of people are saying who are buying these are saying actually you can, most of the time when you want a Mac, you're like, yeah, skip the starter version. You wanna beef that thing up. But a lot of people are saying that actually the baseline Mac mini is good enough for a certain use. Now obviously depends on your use, but even for running Moltbot, they're saying that's probably just fine. I did check the Mac rumors buyer's guide and it has been 455 days since the last Mac mini. That's year and a half-ish, but the average days between releases is 732. So they're calling that neutral mid-product cycle. It is the M4 and the M5 will probably come out, but not maybe next year, maybe something like late this year perhaps. There's really no saying, but at 600 bucks to get started, they are available as far as I can tell. I mean, my friend just bought one today and they're super small now. I had the previous version, the previous form factor. I mean, they literally look like an Apple TV now in terms of form factor, they're super tiny. And yeah, good computers. So I understand why people are doing that.

Well, they also have the ability to have 10 gigabit ethernet.

Right.

One of the fastest SSDs on the market. You could do a lot with even 32 gigs of RAM. I wouldn't buy anything less than that personally. Like it's the $1,500 model. I only know this because I spec'd it out recently, but not because of this conversation or even Molt, but gosh.

It's not that bad, man.

What a shame, man, to have to rename something like that. I mean, Clodbot was cool. That sounds cool, but I can get it. It's a trademark, not an infringement, but what do they call it actually? Let me pull this up real quick. On Forbes.com, they called it trademark confusion.

Yeah.

Trademark confusion.

Which I can see why, because when I first saw it, I thought, is this philanthropic? And then I saw how it was spelled, and I was like, no, it's not anthropic. But when you just hear Clod, obviously it's identical sounding. So it does make sense.

So if you want my recommendation, this is what I would buy personally. And if I was going to buy a Mac mini, it would be between two models. Fully spec'd out, because why not? Or what I would consider the base model would be the M4 chip with 10 core CPU, 10 core GPU, and 16 core neural network, 32 gigs of RAM, one terabyte of SSD, and always go 10 gigabit, because that's just how you got to do it. That one there is $1499. Now I'm not telling you to go buy this, but if you do, that's the one I'd buy. That's the one I would buy personally. I'm not buying it though. I'm not buying it though. I'm not buying it though.

Spec out the biggest one and then not buy it. So can you go more expensive than that? Maybe bigger, bigger.

I have a 3090, an RTX 3090 from a while back that is still of good use. Now the power draw is dramatically different. The sound is dramatically different. The architecture and the hardware requirement is dramatically different. That's kind of fun to play with, but it's done. It's set up. I don't have to play with it anymore. It's sitting there as part of the Proxmox setup. So I can just spin up a VM and pass through the GPU and call it done. So I've got what this could probably do. Although I think the throughput between the speed I think of the throughput through the machine is better than what I currently have.

Plus, I mean, you can put this thing in a bread box. You can put it in your cupboard.

Put it under your pillow. Glove box. Yeah. Put it in your truck.

Back pocket.

Back pocket. Big iPhone.

Kind of is.

Yeah.

What a day, man. With a worse processor. Okay, so.

All I want to know is, is Peter getting a kickback from Apple?

I think he probably should.

I mean.

At least affiliate link through that thing. I don't think they really do affiliates, but if they did, he should be linking over to Amazon with that affiliate link. Oh my gosh.

Here might be the next best thing though. When they released the latest next Mac mini and there's still a run on the Mac minis, put him in the keynote.

Yeah, they demo. Here it is with Multbot.

Yeah. That's the next best thing. I mean, honestly.

That'd be cool.

Yeah, that would be cool.

What else been going on?

Well, I read this post from Roberto Selbach.

Okay.

Your app subscription is now my weekend project.

Oh, this plays into the death of SaaS.

It does.

Your app subscription is my weekend project. Now this is an old trope or meme, I guess, in developer world. I could build that in a weekend kind of a thing, except for his point is probably that that's now less false than it used to be.

Well, here's some key points. The author with zero Swift or Mac OS experience built three functional apps, dictation, screen recording, and a markdown editor to replace $14 to $15 a month of subscriptions they had. Now that to me is a really, really interesting new world, Jared. And that, let me say that again. Zero Swift Mac OS experience, three apps, replaced 15 bucks a month.

I believe it. I'm building a video editor right now, a Mac OS native. I am. I'm just like, you know what? Why not try it? Why not try it? Because I can spec out a video editor to work just the way I want it. And none of the extra stuff, of course, we use Adobe Premiere and all their tools and it's got so much in there. And it's like, do I need all this? What if I had one that just worked exactly and my brain works and I just don't need that anymore? Now, can I get there? I don't know. I'm not sure if it's gonna get there. So far, it opens up videos, it plays them, it has all the keyboard shortcuts I want. It does markers, ins and outs, stuff like that. But it doesn't actually do the rest. Just like an editor for existing videos, like to create clips and stuff. And I never would have even considered such a thing. Cause I don't know Swift. I did write a Mac app probably 15 years ago, which was really simple in Objective-C. And it was called detours and its entire point was to manage your Etsy hosts for you without going to the command line. So you could like put in- Detours? It's called detours, yeah.

I like that.

Yeah, it was cool. It's very cool. And I had to learn a whole bunch of stuff to do that, which was fun. Good side project. Put it out for free. People downloaded it, people liked it. Eventually it actually didn't use Etsy hosts. It used a different Mac native system that does the same thing via an API that Apple built, which was really cool. And that made me not have to actually like edit that file and get pseudo privileges and stuff. And then they deprecated it. And so eventually it quit working and I just didn't care enough to make it work a different way. My point is that I had to learn so much. And it was so simple. Like literally you put, it's a table with like two columns, right? The address and then like the redirect spot. Just like your Etsy hosts, which like space delimited stuff. And I learned so much objectivity to do that and packaging and Xcode and all this. I would never consider to build a video editor, but your Adobe's Creative Cloud subscription is my weekend project, I guess. I mean, there's so much there that Adobe does that this won't do. But man, just the hutzpah, I don't know. What does it give you? It gives you like the freedom to just try.

Well, that goes back to Tom Preston Warner's initial phrase around GitHub, which it was a little bit more crass than that, permission to F up.

Right.

Which I think is really interesting that you say that and I respond with that because look what happened with GitHub, with open source even. When you have permission to just try things and permission to just create things and permission to just join communities and permission to fork things even. A lot of liberty and a lot of agency comes into play. Yeah. And I would say a lot of courage. I think you have to have courage to bite off more than you can chew when it comes to even a weekend project. Why would I do that aside from this assistance because the depth is so deep and I may not come back the same person, okay? Right. I might come out a whole new developer and I might not like myself, okay?

Right. Yeah, I came back like in square brackets, you know?

I was like, hey, I actually have spaces. No, come on now.

I didn't even mind the square brackets after that. I'm like, you know what, objective C is not too bad. Then I'm like, what are you talking about, Jared? This stuff is atrocious. You just got used to it, you know?

That's right, yeah.

So I am with, is it Frederico? What's his name?

Roberto.

Roberto. My bad, Roberto.

That's okay.

I think it's cool that we now have leverage, so much so, that we're willing to dip our toe into other pools to see if the water is warm and save ourselves some money, save ourselves some time, save ourselves some pain.

I think he actually may have replaced more money than this. Now I'm looking at the details here.

How many subscriptions did he replace?

Well, I'm looking at the details here and I wanted to say this one part because this is the part that I really enjoyed by his post. He says, in the past, I used to use Loom, which I like Loom. And if you go to Loom.com, I think you might like them too. They're cool. They really change things. They put a little video recorder in your Mac menu.

It's like screen sharing for sharing, like captured to share, to document, to share.

I've used it in sales scenarios where I want to introduce myself to somebody or I want to share an idea and rather than the meeting, I just tell them the five-minute version of what I'm trying to convey. Skip the meeting, still get the person. And then you can respond in email or with your own video and we can go back and forth if you wanted to, which we've never done that, but I've used Loom before and received value from it. Now, I did question the cost because I didn't use it enough to make it worth it, but the value I got when I did use it was great. So it's one of those things where it's like high value but not frequent enough to make it be like, oh yeah, I should pay for this. So he says, I used to use Loom, which costs 15 bucks a month. And so after creating Jabber, which is what he created, I got excited and vibe-coded Reel, which was the Loom version of this simple demo recorder. It's of course, open source on GitHub, github.com slash rsellback, rsellback, how do you want to say that? R-S-E-L-B-A-C-H slash Reel, R-E-E-L. Cool, and he open sourced it. I love that.

Well, if you take that exact same process and you multiply it out over time and space and you say, now, I should say most developers and then even some non-developers. So like all these new people are going to be trying to do similar things that Roberto has done and that other people have done in small ways. And they're gonna apply that inside their personal lives. They're also gonna apply that at their work and look at all those subscriptions they have for their business and say, can we run this business a little bit leaner? Do we need all this? Can we build something ourselves? The cost of building your own is coming down. Could that lead to the death of SaaS, the death of software as a subscription?

Well, this might be the nail in the coffin right here. Let me read this to you. One more verbatim from Roberto. Can't skip these words, these are good words. I quote, all of these $10 per month apps are suddenly a weekend project for me. I am an engineer, but I have never written a single Mac OS application. I have never even read Swift code in my life. And yet, I can now get an app up and running in a couple of hours. This is crazy. I concur, my friend, I concur, this is crazy. So what do you wanna say about the death of SaaS? Have you experienced this personally? Have you replaced any SaaS? Have you killed a SaaS in your life?

Jared? Not personally, no.

I mean, even if it's just killed to you, it doesn't have to be killed for everybody else. Like, is it dead to you?

Right. I haven't actually done that. I'm trying to think, I'm pretty light SaaS user. I'm trying to think of what my subscriptions are that are software subscriptions on a personal level. Now we have a lot of changelog subscriptions. We can probably talk through those. But honestly, I don't have very many subscriptions that aren't content. Like most of my subscriptions are content. I guess we do use our groceries app, which is a in-app purchase. It's an iPhone app that we use in order to manage a shared grocery list with like, you know, what do we need and recurring and stuff like that. And it's like six bucks a year or something. Like it's not money that isn't well spent or like there's no pain for us. And so I think I haven't replaced that one. I haven't even tried. What else do I subscribe to? I can't even think of anything. What do you subscribe to Adam? What are your SaaS, your personal SaaS?

Oh, not much. I mean, I'd say the same. We're here in Texas and we have HEB because we have HEB. They have an amazing app which has amazing lists. And so all my grocery lists are done in there.

That's a good idea by the way.

They have buy it again. So it's like, bam, from me, sweet, okay. Yeah. I think that's actually a really interesting place in technologies. You have these non-typical tech companies that are now tech companies. I mean, they have a really well done iOS app for HEB. A really well done website even. It's not just like, hey, we're a grocery store. It's like, hey, come and shop here. You know, they will deliver to your door. You can go and pick it up. You know, all that good stuff and order in advance. My wife is a big fan of ordering in advance and picking it up. I like to go in the store because I have to touch it, feel it. You know, like I like to choose my meat and choose my fruits and vegetables.

Sure.

But I'm not against her ways. I like her ways. She's amazing. Not many subscriptions though, honestly. I think, oh, you know what? Let me back up my friend.

Oh, he's got some. Here they come.

I've got one. I forgot about this one. Well friends, I don't know about you but something bothers me about GitHub Actions. I love the fact that it's there. I love the fact that it's so ubiquitous. I love the fact that agents that do my coding for me believe that my CI CD workflow begins with drafting Tomo files for GitHub Actions. That's great. It's all great until, yes, until your builds start moving like molasses. GitHub Actions is slow. It's just the way it is. That's how it works. I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry because our friends at namespace, they fix that. Yes, we use namespace.so to do all of our builds so much faster. Namespace is like GitHub Actions, but faster. I mean like way faster. It caches everything smartly. It caches your dependencies, your Docker layers, your build artifacts, so your CI can run super fast. You get shorter feedback loops, happier developers because we love our time, and you get fewer, I'll be back after this coffee and my build finishes. So that's not cool. The best part is it's drop-in. It works right alongside your existing GitHub Actions with almost zero config. It's a one-line change. So you can speed up your builds, you can delight your team, and you can finally stop pretending that build time is focus time. It's not. Learn more, go to namespace.so. That's namespace.so, just like it sounds, like it said. Go there, check them out. We use them, we love them, and you should too. Namespace.so. So I was gonna call it MacTuner. You remember this, Jared?

MacTuner? Oh yeah, MacTuner. Okay, so clean my Mac.

Yeah, so I got frustrated, and it was not because of the cost. It was because the, I guess it was kind of cost, RAM cost. Right. So here it is, eating up my RAM, and I'm like, you know, I'm hitting swap and stuff like that. I'm like, gosh, do I really need, you know, this thing running all the time? And so I was like, I wonder if I can, if I can vibe code a better version of this, because I mean, it's just scripts. I mean, all it is, is a pretty UI on scripts. I'm like, really, what I want to do is maintain my Mac. And so I was gonna call it MacTuner, which was still cool. I've since changed the name, because I'm more nerdy than that. I want it to sound like a system service. So it's called TunerD. T-U-N-E-R-D, TunerD.

TunerD.

And let me tell you, one of my favorite features is in here, is this, is that you do TunerD, is a CLI, TunerD, memory, dash dash AI. What do you think that does, Jared?

It's gonna tell you how much memory your AIs are using.

Man, it doesn't even tell me in like a table or a dashboard. It's a one-liner, call out to Claude, because I have it installed, and a Claude code, as a matter of fact, and haiku. So it's super fast, like it's almost instant. That's how fast it is. And instead of waiting for the whole entire thing to like be done and then printed to the screen, it streams it, and it looks cool. So rather than like me reading this table about how my memory is, now I'm reading words that are crafted just for me in real time based on what I'm doing here. And it's like, hey, your system's doing great, a little overloaded here and there. Think about Dropbox is always one of the culprits.

Oh man, that's what we got at Vibecode, a new Dropbox.

Amen.

Amen. That should be our next project.

I kind of feel bad celebrating this, okay? I really do, I kind of feel bad celebrating this. I did a fist pump and everything, okay, for the audio listeners, I fist pumped. Okay, you can't hear those, I fist pumped.

Wow, gosh. There's a business SaaS, I guess it else is personal because before business, we had our personal Dropbox. And so there you go, and I pay annually, I think. But that's a form of monthly. That's a big software as a service for both individuals and teams. Making tons of money, sitting there, not really doing much that I can see outside of the box. You know?

That's right. Like it's there now, I will tell you. Let me tell you what it's doing here.

Tuner. What's the last Dropbox feature that they added where you're like, oh, that's cool. I've been waiting for that. I can't think of one. So the coolest feature they added probably in the last 10 years was Selective Sync. That was a big deal.

Tuner D, memory, dash dash AI. Oh gosh, this is so beautiful. I love this. I love Vibe Code and I'm just kidding. I'm not gonna say it. I can't go there. I can't say it. It's just too not nice.

Can you screen share? Can you share it so we can see it?

Yeah, I'll screen share this.

Oh my goodness. Did you know the original Dropbox Selective Sync 1.0 came out in 2010? That's crazy. That's 16 years ago.

Okay, do you see this, Jared?

Yes, Adam Sokowiak at AS-MBP-M1.

That's right.

I assume that's your initials and your MacBook Pro and it's an M1.

That's right.

Okay, I figured out your naming conventions.

Prepare for this.

Tuner D.

That's it.

Okay, let's see it. Analyzing, haiku. Ooh, system panel load just fine.

That's cool, man. Look at this. Oh, it's mad about granola they're running to. If you keep Chrome, it just yelled about Dropbox. The format is a little weird here in this smaller screen though. What's going on here?

Well, you've got it bigger than that yet.

Yeah, so maybe some touches and some feelings on that one there. Now it's not upset about, let's run it again and see if we get a new result here.

Why, was it complaining about Dropbox?

It just complained about it and I cleared it to do this demo.

There you go, Dropbox.

There you go, now it's upset about Dropbox again. See, it's like if you want the single biggest quick win, quick granola, I don't even want this running, and Dropbox 1.1 GB.

That's RAM. What is granola and what's it doing?

Well, granola is, what is granola? Granola like records, it helps you with your meetings. It takes your meeting notes for you.

Gotcha.

But like, if I put those two.

So after this call, it's gonna be like, man, Jared was really on fire today.

Maybe so.

Great takes, hilarious even.

When you're not actively syncing, look at this, 2.4 GB consumed.

Zero downside or zero downside in that case, yeah.

But then you could also do, what could you do here?

Can you do Tuner D memory release or whatever? Like free it, you know?

Let's do that. Now see, now you get the whole dashboard. Would you see that down there? Now it's printing out down there too. But you get the full on dashboard. Look at this, heavy.

Google Chrome always.

Like look at these guys, these culprits here. Adobe CC, not even using it right now.

Come on. Do you have a dash dash kill? And you can just kill the stuff, you know?

Well, I got it.

Well, don't do that, because it's gonna knock you out of our session. Don't do it, it'll kill you.

I haven't done this yet. Let's see what the dash help says.

You sure you wanna do this?

Let's see here. We got some cleaning we could do.

Execute, that's the word you chose. Dash dash execute. Oh, I'm just reading your docs. It says scroll down slightly. Apps uninstall Slack dash dash execute.

Yeah. Oh, the reason why is I didn't want this thing to be, especially with uninstallations, I didn't want it to be like accidentally uninstalling Slack or something like that. I want it to be safe to run initially. And rather than running like dash N for a, or a dry run dash dash dry run, I wanted to actually make it so it was explicit. So some of these installations are like system, you know, issue stuff where you had to do dash dash execute. So if you wanna uninstall something, you have to be explicit and put the slice your neck off situation here.

Yeah, it seems like more like a guillotine scenario. I think I would advise like dash dash seriously.

I wrote that copy. Mac OS system tuning toolkit, get dialed, maintain your Mac augmented. Then dev is the, it should be the version number. And I haven't played with this enough yet to give it a version yet. So there's no version.

Dude, put it on the internets.

Come on. Well, let's have that time, man.

Twitter D, no, you're just saying you'd launch Claude and say, I would like this to be on GitHub soon. Please take care of that for me.

See the all commands run in dry mode, dry run mode by default.

Safe by default.

I like that. No accidental uninstallations or executions.

Cool, cool, cool. So there you have a little bit of your own, killing of a SAS, cause that was a subscription model. Now the downside of this is like, hey, these are our people. This is our industry. These are our people. This is how a lot of us make our living is with this stuff. I was thinking about like uptime robot and all these things, uptime checkers. Like you could code one of those up in a half an hour probably that's gonna work.

Well, you could Molt bought it.

You could Molt bought it.

You got heartbeat checks in there, which is that.

So I'm of two minds. There are two hearts of this where like I get excited and I'm thinking like power to the people to build their own stuff and save money. And then on the other side, it's like, yeah, but I'm also have all these other people who've been building these software services and built lives and careers and hired a bunch of people and helped them make a career of themselves. And they're now threatened. Obviously you can't stop the system once it's moving, but this is why people are talking about the death of SaaS. And I think mostly this conversation has been going on around recent stock market moves because the SaaS bundle of stocks have all been trending downward over the last six months. We talk about Adobe. We talk about Atlassian. We talk about Oracle, Salesforce, ServiceNow, DocuSign, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Go ahead and find your SaaS ETF and you'll find all the tickers who seem to be trending down and not just with your typical market movements. I mean, that's what people are saying is like, this seems like a sector that is losing value and that can be concerning. And also a sector that needs to maybe find itself on the other side of the AI wave and some will find it through and others won't.

Your thoughts? I think there's some that I'm actually on drwealth.com right now. I just Googled quickly SaaS bundle stock. Thank you for that new phrase of my lexicon, Jared. I didn't think of that phrase. I'm down with it.

Keyworded it for you.

Yeah, Zoom, I'm not sure who would vibe code a Zoom. Yeah, I'm not sure if you can vibe code a Zoom. Like maybe you could, but there's a lot there. There's a lot going on there. Could you vibe code a DocuSign? I think signatures in the case of everyday folks is so free. Like I know Dropbox has it and DocuSign might even have a free version, but once you get into that market where you for sure need to have like daily signatures, you're not gonna vibe code a DocuSign. There's too much legality in there. I don't think you would at least, not in 26, maybe 27, 28. Shopify, would you vibe code away a Shopify? I mean, that's maybe for your individual self. Rails, you got rails, right? That's what Shopify is. So on an individual level, you could do that, but would you replace the entire platform? I don't think that you could do that with a vibe code. Could you vibe code Cloudflare away, maybe in parts?

I don't look at Cloudflare as so much as a SaaS as it is like internet infrastructure. Maybe it's in the bundle there.

Parts of it, yeah, for sure, Cloudflare. Twilio, would you vibe code Twilio away? I'd vibe code on it, not away.

Yeah, what if you find another base layer that's just cheap and just has an API or just an MCP server? All the extra stuff they built around it is really where the money is. I think probably you got CTOs and their CFO looking at this sort of strange new world and saying, well, who, what are our biggest subscriptions? And they're like, well, we spend $300,000 a year on DocuSign. And they're like, I just made the number up.

No, no, I'm responding. Exactly. I'm the responder. I'm like, what?

Yeah, like, do we need all of those features? No, we don't. What part of DocuSign do we use? That's right. And then they list out like the four things that we do. Maybe we do them a lot. And then like, can you put two engineers on that for two weeks and see what they can come up with?

Two days, Jared, two days.

I'm being generous. A weekend, weekend project for two devs.

That's right.

Or one dev and two clods. Or a dev, a clod, and a molt, you know? And see what they can do. I feel like lots of people are doing that and are going to continue to do that more and more as these tools become more capable. And I do feel like we've crossed the threshold where capability is now viability. I mean, they're very useful now. It was not, it's not just the promise. It's the delivery. Are there problems? Yes. Is it 100% amazing? No. Do you still need to know stuff? Absolutely. Like all those caveats aside, there's real value here and it's starting to be realized and it's going to change things.

I wonder if it's back to the days of service providers versus software as a service. What if we're in the day of bespoke software for me? Because how much SaaS, like you just said with DocuSign, when we start to examine and audit, what do we actually use? Well, we only use four of the features we get from Enterprise. But we have to have Enterprise to have the API access.

Right.

So, well, we only really pay for the API access because that's what we need that. Because that's how we're doing X, Y, or Z. Maybe that's how we're doing syncing and we have our own backups for SOC 2 compliance or whatever, for whatever reason. Disaster recovery. It's always, DR is always a good culprit there. But we paid for disaster recovery and business continuity. And those are two reasons why you always spend too much money.

Right.

You know, and then you do that, but what if you're like, okay, great. Now I gotta go find two AI native, well-informed engineers who wouldn't normally build it on their own, but now they can because they're augmented. So what if the world is full of bespoke software built just for us, almost in real time, potentially by service providers and or the product marketer who has never touched a thing, vibe codes for the most part. And maybe you have a couple engineers sort of like making sure these things are legitimate and secure and the things that really matter to the business. Like that's one thing that Damien Tanner and I talked about. He was saying how he was evaluating a CRM tool and they actually used it for a bit. I forget which one he said they use. I think he may have said it on here. I'm not sure if he did. And he questioned, he's like, gosh, I don't really get a lot of value. They make me go to this web front end that's not really for me and this dashboard that's not really helpful, but I do need to keep track of these things. And so he said, he just riffed for like four minutes into like text to speech and YOLO'd, whatever that was. And out the other end came this CRM that they're now using. And we speculated on that conversation. Like what if we're in the era of just in time, just for me interfaces. And it's not really the death of SaaS necessarily. Maybe it was always ill placed or misplaced, or we still need the API. Maybe we still need some things from it. But the UI layer is for the, I think Damien said this, I'm gonna say it too, the dumb, slow humans. You don't need that for a fast AI. You don't need that web UI. You need an API, maybe a CLI, maybe an MCP server if that's not a bad word around here. Gosh, MCP, go check yourself. That's what his speculation was, this world like just in time interface is just for me bespoke.

I can see that being the case. If you think about it, what we're doing today, which is like, and what we've been doing for a couple of years now, which is like I don't write SQL anymore. And Matt Reyer doesn't have to build his Grafana dashboards anymore. And the honeycomb thing writes its own stuff. You describe what you want. Like that's kind of a first iteration of a bespoke interface based on demand. Like a SQL query is that. It's just a hardcore nerdy one, right? Like I wanna see all of the sales where this amount was less than this amount. And then like make sure you don't include the ones from Australia, but then do that. And like you tell it that and it builds you that query and it shows you that data. And that is a bespoke one off ad hoc interface to the information based on a human's desires. And as the tools get more tools to build with, it was very simple to say, I actually did this recently. Here's a good personal example. I went into my OPPD account, which is Omaha Public Power District. That's our local energy partner. And they provide, I think it's like 12. That's more than 12. I think it's like 18 months of your history in this like wonky UI. That's a single page app that was built by some low end dev who just got hired or whatever, intern project. And I'm looking at like the URL and I want more information than that. And I want a better chart than that, because I wanna know like, how am I doing now versus previous years? And so I can tell from their API calls, cause I'm a nerd. So I open up the thing and I'm like, yeah, they're just like, they're paginating this collection. And it's just the UI that's limited. And the UI stinks. And I'm like, all I gotta do is give that to Claude and say, look, this, here's my cookies. I here's the API calls. Just see how many months you can actually go back and then build me an HTML page that has a chart that provides like monthly, yearly comparisons, like all the things that I wanna see. And like seven minutes later, I was looking at five years of data.

What?

Yeah, I was looking at my whole history on my own website, running from inside my browser, that's just sitting on my desktop HTML file.

Just in time bespoke for me.

And that was cool. And then I was like, you know what? I love that I'm done with it. You know, like I don't need it anymore. I can open it up whenever I want. It's historical data, so it's not gonna change. I can look at that. And then next year when they have more data, I can go ahead and just rerun the things. I grab the latest and throw it in there. Yeah. And that is, I think, more and more and more of that's gonna happen. So I think he's onto something. I think that is gonna be a future.

So the only pushback I have, which is not much, because I fully agree, I just wonder who's gonna do that? What kind of person is gonna do that?

Do what?

That's what you did. Like, no one else is gonna have your intuition like you did, because they don't have your software engineering history. But because you do, you can. And because you can, you do. Someone else that doesn't understand URL structure or Cs between those two lines like you did, can paint that picture. So I think the availability is certainly there, but the kind of person who can do it for now is still largely an engineer, or what we may call soon, a former engineer.

Gee, thanks. No, yeah.

You know what I'm trying to say though? Yes, I do know what you're saying. My wife's friend, no offense to them, they're not technical. They're never gonna do that.

I get it.

They're not the patients at all ever for it.

I think there's like a gap right now. So the one insight that I had that most people wouldn't have is like, there's more data in there. They're just not showing it to me. Right. And I could actually, I didn't necessarily have to give Claude any of that. I could have said, here's a website that I'm logged into. Can you get more data? And it might've been, it would've just figured that out on its own.

Oh, that's true Jared. Okay, good concur.

I like that. So I think my expertise probably gave it a leg up and got me there faster, but I think there's a gap. And then we have a next generation. You know, we're gonna have AI natives here soon. In fact, our kids are gonna be darn near close to AI native, right? My kids are already saying things like, well, did you ask chat? And that's always, that's not the chat in there. That's chat GBT. It's not some Twitch streamer's chat, which is the other version of ask chat, you know? And what they mean by that is like, any question that feels like it's impossible to answer, like we would never know, or like eventually you'd be like, can I get more data for my OPD? Like, well, ask chat. You know, chat's gonna tell you. And so they're gonna be asking all kinds of questions that we wouldn't think of. And so they might go there. Hopefully they go there and they use it for great good.

Well friends, this episode is brought to you by Squarespace. I love Squarespace. I'm a user of Squarespace. And Squarespace is an awesome all-in-one platform where you can stand up a professional site, offer paid services, get paid, the whole thing without writing a single line of code or debugging CSS. They've even got Blueprint AI now, which takes basic info about what you're building and generates a fully custom site with actual design recommendations. Not a template you have to fight with, but a starting point that already looks like you thought about how it should look. And for the data nerds out there, I know you, that's me too. Built-in analytics are cool. See your traffic, see your revenue, see your bookings, see your sales, figure out where to focus all from one single dashboard. No third-party apps, no GDPR headaches, just there for you. And whether you're launching a side project, selling a course, or finally replacing that under-construction webpage you've been kicking around, Squarespace handles the website part so you can focus on the thing you actually wanna build and the content you wanna create. So head to squarespace.com slash changelog for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use our offer code changelog to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Once again, squarespace.com slash changelog. Let me share one really uncanny story that I think was just really wild. We took this trip in October to Pennsylvania, because I'm from Pennsylvania originally. And we ended up getting stomach flu, which made the trip kinda suck really bad. I'll spray those details, because they get kinda gory. But it was fun. It was a cabin in the woods in the mountains of Pennsylvania, beautiful. This area's beautiful. It's the fall time, autumn time, and it's when the leaves are turning. And so they were just beginning to turn. And so this beautiful mountain air, just amazing, magical. And I think I had done some planning with my clots. My wife uses chat, I use clots. She now uses chat and clots. I still just use clots, because I'm biased. Anyways, that's a different concern. But because it knew I planned this trip and what we were doing, maybe it didn't even know all this. But I asked it, because I tell my son's stories at bedtime. And I said, well, rather than me make up this story about our trip, because we wanna reflect back on where we had been. We love to reflect back on our fun times, the good old days, which was basically yesterday. And I had Claude make up this story. And similar to Damian, I just voiced in there, dictation. Pushed the microphone button. Hey, Claude, do this, that. This is where we went. We went to Pennsylvania. Here's where we're at. This is zip code. Kinda gave it some context and details that it can use to come up with some kind of realistic version of it. This thing told us a story. I swear it was there with us, dude. That's how good the story was. So it retold this hike story we did at Ohio Pal. It's about a four mile hike. What we saw, the landmarks we saw, the bridge we crossed, where we stopped at, where we got the ice cream from. Dude, it knew these things. It retold us where I swear it was there with us. That's how good the story was. That is wild. That's not a nap. That's just entertaining stuff, right? So wild.

What, did you have the voice mode on the entire time or something? How did it know where you can probably went?

Oh, that's because I told it in the prompt. My prompt was just detailed. I think it had some chat history, too, it may have pulled from. But I was like, are we gonna go to this cabin or that cabin? It wasn't like playing this whole trip for me. I think it may have had some data in our chat history, potentially. But my prompt to it was like, we went to Ohio Pal, gave me an Ohio Pal story, we took this hike, and I told it the loop we took. And so it knew the loop. It knew the place where we'd go get the ice cream. It knew the different stops we'd take at Horseshoe Falls and stuff like that. And so because it knew all that, or it could go and find it and research it quickly, it just did. And it gave me a 20 minute story to read of my son. And that was the first time I'd read to him a story where he didn't fall asleep during the story. Because he was gripped by the realism of it being our story. It's like, dad, did it just tell us what we did? I'm like, it basically did, son. Like it basically did. It was so close to being our story. So very, very interesting times. I mean, I don't know if there's a sass out there for that. But maybe there's a sass out there for that. You know, like just in time storytelling.

I mean, you're taking audible time right there.

That's true. That's true. I would say the other one that's pretty interesting, if you haven't played with us yet, is Notebook LM. Oh. Notebook LM is pretty wild.

Coming for our job, man. We're podcasting.

Now, you know what? I had this different take on it because, what's the easiest way to describe it? Like I was learning some stuff and there's not a lot of content on some of the things I'm trying to learn. And so rather than that, I will kind of like have this session with Claude and I'll tell it to summarize it for me. And I'll shove that into Notebook LM. It'll create a podcast. Now it's not that great. It's not that great of a podcast.

But it-

It will still do the audible version of the information, but it's kind of, I think that the future of whatever it is will be better. Current iteration, good enough.

I see the value. So I'm mostly kidding when I say they're coming for our job. I think it's silly they call it a podcast when literally it just means two people talking. Right. But I mean, I guess that's what a lot of podcasts are.

Two people talking.

Yeah. So here we are. But, and I was kind of offended because the way it opened up was like, they're talking about what they had for lunch and stuff. And I'm like, I know neither one of you had lunch. Like I understand it would be valuable. And that's obviously just one example. It was the example that Google was using at the time. So I feel like it was fair judgment. But it makes sense if you have like a hairy topic or a boring topic, hearing two people talk about it back and forth is easier to consume and more enjoyable to consume than like sitting there and reading or even having an LM summarize for you. So I do see the value there. I think it's silly they call that a podcast, but I think it's probably the closest approximation to what people expect from a podcast. So I get it. And I agree that they are going to get better. My initial tastes were pretty sour.

The way my, the way I think of it in my use case is not the replacement, it's the alternative. So when there's a lack of real time content out there that's good on the subject. Yeah. Or I want to go into this particular paper because we wrote it and I can't go back and read it. So I'll listen to it while I do the dishes. I'll just feed it the paper. And these two AIs have a discussion about it. And I listen to it a lot, so I guess in that case it kind of is a replacement, but for me it's like an alternative. I can't read it, but I kind of did. I would go and leave through it. Because I can't listen to it, I like to listen a lot. Like I'm a big Audible user. So this is like right up my alley. I'm like I'll do the dishes and listen to this versus that. And they don't give me the option to read it on the web. I can't just push a button and say read me this article. So like this is the next best version of it. And it's been more like an alternative path to the information, not a replacement of the original thing to take its value away. Or to like take somebody's lunch away. You know, their web view.

Yeah. Right, it's packaging.

Yeah.

I just think that the AI podcasters just need to be straightforward with what they are and who they are. You know, and don't try to be humans. Just be like yeah, we're two AIs to talk about this. And don't act as if you had lunch that day or that you have emotions about things. You know, because like that's just off-putting. But if you just be like hey, I read this great article, tell me about it. Like I haven't heard that version, I'm sure it's out there where it doesn't have any sort of personal story anecdotes. Just ditch the anecdotes and stuff and just like be who you are. I got no problem with AI-generated content as long as I'm just straightforward that it's AI-generated content and it's straightforward that it's, you know what I'm saying? There's just value there. It's the uncanny valley of trying to act as if you are not. That just confounds and offends. But yours didn't have any storytelling or anything about their lives and stuff. Like that's what I was listening to. I was like no.

Yeah, that's the part where I think it's even too sticky. They, it's on repeat. So they will do, and these two, it's a guy and a girl in this case.

Yes.

They call it the deep dive even. Welcome back to the deep dive where we're going deep, oh my gosh, our reader today has supplied us with a plethora of new information. It's like, I mean. Excited. They're very excited. They're very excited. I don't know how to take this stuff, man. I'm not sure where to categorize this and like, oh no, this is terrible. Oh, this is super core. What the heck is this I'm listening to? I'm just not sure where this lands for me. I'm enjoying it though. I really am enjoying it.

There you go, I guess that's what matters.

Yeah, it's a new way.

It's a new way. Some people will enjoy it, other people won't. And see if it makes its place in the world.

Yeah.

I do think reading papers is oftenly, often boring. And so if you can make that more approachable and accessible to more people, then you're gonna help get that information out to more people. There's value there. All right, what else? We've talked a lot about a lot of things. Is there anything else that's exciting or scary out there or interesting in the world? I did have one article in this week's news that I thought tied into our conversation around when you brought up service providers. And I wasn't sure exactly what you meant by service providers, but the post was the future of software engineering is SRE. And his entire point, I think that was Swizek Teller, his point was that as the creation of software becomes easier and easier, and features and ideas and implementation get less important, what gets more important is the ability to maintain, secure, and operate that which has been created over a long period of time. And I think that kind of dovetails into your point about service providers. And I wondered if I was picking up what you're putting down or if I was misreading what you were saying.

Yeah, I think this is similar because I was saying, you can have the product manager and not saying that product managers can't or even product marketers can't be developers. They totally can be, but by and large, they're usually not. They're usually adjacent and they're usually going to be vibe coding because they're not steeped in Swift or steeped in something or other. And they're certainly not going to be steeped in security. They may have security theory, but not be really that deep. Whereas the engineer is super steeped in it usually, especially in a shift left scenario. So I think the one you're referring to as the future of software engineering is SRE.

Yeah.

You know, reading this, I do agree with that because if you run your, if you build some of these things for yourself, if you vibe code your own sasses, let's say, and you kill some stuff that is in your life, likely in today's world, 2026, you're going to be engineering or engineering adjacent, not like two or three steps to Kevin Bacon away from software developer. Likely. Yeah. And then you're gonna be responsible for keeping that thing up or turning it into a reproducible product that you can conjure or call upon when it makes sense. Maybe you make an iOS app, maybe you do something else, maybe you make a webpage. Either way, you're gonna be responsible for some version of uptime. So yeah, in that case, that does apply. What I meant by a service provider is this. There are businesses out there that the large part of their secret sauce is somebody else's sass and their data trapped in somebody else's sass. And if they could just find a service provider, an engineer, a software developer to go and build their special thing for them, well, now they take back control. Maybe they free up 15, $30,000 a year in would-be sass expenditures. And it's not because the sass isn't good enough. It's because it's not just in time and bespoke enough. I think there's a lot of use cases out there where there's people using sass because that's the only option. It's not delivered in a box anymore. It's only delivered as a service via the wire, via HTTP. And not many of them are leveraging APIs. In fact, most don't even know what an API is. But I do, and you do, Jared. And what if there was a bunch of Adam and Jareds out there that's like, you know what? I'm gonna go help my neighbor who runs this cool business that spends way too much on sass build their own thing and now have their own secret sauce and have that thing locked down. Then you get into the SRE land because you gotta keep that thing up and you know this, right? The Heroku days, right? You gotta keep it up. You gotta fly, you got render, you got Heroku, you got railway, you got all these hosting providers. Or even if you got crazy, went out to Hester, got your own box, dialed it in. Put it in the cloud, boom shaka. You got your own box, you got your own GP, you got your own CP, you got your own RAM, you got your own disk, whatever. And you know what you want. But the service provider, I think this coming future, there's a lot of value to capture in the place where you got people out there spending way too much on SaaS because they have no other choice. And it's a dang shame because they're giving all that data to one, two, or three service providers, SaaS providers, that really don't care about them because they're not in the community. They're not bad, Silicon Valley company, or not bad, a company in a different country even. Not saying that's bad, but they're not neighbors. Like five miles, 10 miles away, impact my local community kind of neighbor. And I believe that if you're a software developer out there that is looking for place to place value, I would look there. What are the nearby communities and folks that are not visibly struggling, but they are spending a lot of money and maybe too much money for their own bottom line, and in that way may be struggling, that you could be a good neighbor and a good service provider and build something cool for them. I think that could be the next big future. Because I mean, how many more of us are way more enabled to build a video editor we would have never built or build Tuner D, you know what I'm saying? And just do a little shell out, a little shell out to Claude and Haiku and give me a one-liner stream back and make it look cool. I mean, I'm using that. So in that case, that's cool for me. I think there's a lot of possibility in that front there. And that's the area where I think maybe we'll shift. And I would just say that maybe SaaS, as we know it, doesn't die, it just changes. It's largely a web UI. They largely gate it. They say, well, if you want the API or you want a non-rate limited API beyond a certain measure or access to your own data, call us because that's an enterprise ticket. And I'm cool with that. That's how SaaS gets their value. I'm not anti that. I just think that the world is pushing back on that notion.

Mm-hmm. Natural-born SaaS killers.

It's a good title, man.

It's a good title.

That's dirty to say, man. I want to tell you, audience, for those who can't see my face, I'm gonna let Jared laugh a little bit. I'm laughing, I'm smiling. I'm smirking. I'm smiling. It feels a little dirty to talk about this.

It really does. I'm laughing.

It's like a dirty word in a way. Say, I feel like this is like a taboo. Let's not do this. We are. And we're not AI. We're real people.

That's right.

For now.

And I'm still a plug puller at heart. So yeah, there's always so far I'm gonna go. And then I'm gonna pull that plug.

Pull that plug, cut that cord.

Right when they pick up weapons, I'm just, I'm out.

Yeah.

Hopefully it's not too late.

Yeah. And if you are a SaaS out there, I think my advice to stop being such a gate on your API. If you want to be infrastructure, be infrastructure, provide an amazing API with amazing uptime, great error codes, all that good stuff. Don't rate limit me when I hammered a little bit and I'm developing on something. You just like suddenly make me stop cause you can't handle it. Figure that out. Be my plumbing and be the layer and let me build some things on your things and have some data freedom. That's like figure that out. I think there's a world for that. I wonder if that's the, I wonder if that's the way to scale SaaS to the next level is freedom in the data, freedom in the API.

We will see. All right, thanks for hanging out with us and helping us work through all these things and listening along. Let us know if you agree or disagree, or if you laughed or cried when we said various things. We hang out in Zulip, change.com slash community, totally free. Totally cool.

Totally cool.

And come converse with us. You can also email, of course. You can do whatever you like and we listen. So that's all I got. Do you have any other topics? I'm kind of rapping here without asking you, but.

No, I think that's it. That's it. I think we've said enough. If I say any more, I'll just get myself in trouble.

Yeah, we did not want to get in trouble.

Let's not do that. FCC, no, no, no. Anthropic, we didn't say, we didn't say anything, okay? We didn't talk about Clogbot. That's not what happened here. It was some other bot. You chill, you chill over there. Don't cancel my accounts, okay? I keep my cloud code.

All right, bye friends.

Bye friends.

Okay, that's your changelog for this week. Thanks for hanging with us. What do you think? Are the rumors of SaaS's demise greatly exaggerated? Or is this a trend that's heading up and to the right? Let us know in the comments. We love hearing from you. Thanks again to our partners at Fly.io, to Breakmaster Cylinder, to Tiger Data, Namespace and Squarespace for sponsoring changelog this week. And thanks to you. We appreciate you. Next week on the pod, news on Monday, Tushar Jain from Docker talking to Hardin Images on Wednesday, and Amal Hussain here on changelog and friends on Friday. Have a great weekend. Call someone you haven't talked to in a while. It's always worth it. And let's talk again real soon.