Action absorbs anxiety

It's time for changeloggin' friends with Adam and Jared and some other rental

We hope that you love it and stay until the end We're not offended, we know you're probably busy coding Your caffeine intake isn't an actual problem, so why don't we walk outside And we can listen to changeloggin' friends with them and Jared and silicone me We know one day, but honestly, why don't we walk outside And we can listen to changeloggin' friends What's up friends, I'm here with Kyle Galbraith, co-founder and CEO of Depot Depot is the only build platform looking to make your builds as fast as possible But Kyle, this is an issue because GitHub Actions is the number one CI provider out there But not everyone's a fan, explain that

I think when you're thinking about GitHub Actions, it's really quite jarring how you can have such a wildly popular CI provider And yet it's lacking some of the basic functionality or tools that you need to

actually be able to debug your builds or deployments And so back in June, we essentially took a stab at that problem in particular with Depot's GitHub Action Runners What we've observed over time is effectively GitHub Actions when it comes to like actually debugging a build is pretty much useless The job logs in GitHub Actions UI is pretty much where your dreams go to die Like they're collapsed by default, they have no resource metrics When jobs fail, you're essentially left playing detective Like clicking each little drop down on each step in your job to figure out like

Okay, where did this actually go wrong? And so what we set out to do with our own GitHub Actions observability is essentially we built a real observability solution around GitHub Actions

Okay, so how does it work?

All of the logs by default for a job that runs on a Depot GitHub Action Runner They're uncollapsed You can search them, you can detect if there's been out of memory errors

You can see all of the resource contention that was happening on the runner So you can see your CPU metrics, your memory metrics Not just at the top level runner level But all the way down to the individual processes running on the machine And so for us, this is our take on the first step forward

of actually building a real observability solution around GitHub Actions So that developers have real debugging tools to figure out what's going on in their builds

Okay friends, you can learn more at Depo.dev Get a free trial, test it out Instantly make your builds faster So cool Again, Depo.dev We're here with our old friend Arun Gupta A free man You're a free man now Arun

A free man Indeed it is I like to call myself as a free agent now

Okay

This is the first time, gosh, in almost 30 years I've ever been a free agent And it's weird because over the last five, six job changes I've never had to prepare a resume I never applied for a job The last time I applied for a job was sun.com slash jobs back in 98 actually

Wow

And after that, I've always been, hey, come work for me Can I do this fun thing and we'll craft a job for you kind of thing And as part of, as I say, corporate restructuring The entire team that was to do with developers was let go And here you go, you know, involuntary free agent But as rightly said, you know, there's definitely a bit of freeness to this entire thing But I'm enjoying it so far

The company's Intel, right? That's the free agent company you're from So there's some obvious things in the news about Intel for the last while Are you going to spill some beans? Can you share some stuff? How close can we come to the sun on this conversation?

Well, so back in 21, I believe, is when Pat Gelsinger wrote a letter on LinkedIn Which is an open letter to the open ecosystem And he said, open ecosystem is a fundamental philosophy at Intel And at that time I was at Apple, nothing open there Things are changing, but at that time it was very rough And I said, my God, a CEO like that who believes in open source and open ecosystem And if somebody could fix or change Intel, that's Pat Gelsinger And so that's what got me excited I saw the letter in October, November timeframe Said, yeah, it's good But then, you know, things change in January, February timeframe 22 When they reached out that, hey, we would like you to run this open ecosystem team And then they offered a very lucrative title of a VP So I said, okay, you know what, that sounds exciting And I'm never afraid of challenges in that sense So let's bring on the toughest challenge Let's put the pedal to the metal, everything that you have learned in the industry And see what we can do to turn the ship around And we did our best My team was responsible for the developer outreach in the open source world We were running events We were doing hackathons We were doing workshops We were doing blogs Very successful podcast All sorts of fun stuff that developers would reach out to We ran that And over the last year or so, I was running the developer programs team That was about 40 plus people So I had a whole bunch of dev rel people under me Who was driving, who was really directly writing the code and working with the developers Then that was dev academy team Then there was an ace team, academy, community and events And that team was responsible for running large events Having Intel's presence at events like KubeCon, open source summit, et cetera Rainvent and all And we were very directly engaged with academia Running student ambassador programs and all sorts of fun stuff Also managing all the social media handles And then I had a bunch of folks At some point I had OSPO, the open source program office part of my team as well And then I had a whole bunch of principal engineer-like people Who were working with hyperscalers or with AI communities and all So I would say the last gig was very satisfying Because you're operating at that scale Driving the presence in the developer ecosystem We had a lot of fun

For sure I think even what drew us to going back to the open source strings you were pulling there What attracted you to Intel was something that was surprising to us Jared, you may know the details a bit more But I think it was like contributions to Kubernetes Or like there was some like unknown Intel deep contribution into various things In the open source community that were largely We were unaware I would think that we would be kind of aware to some degree, right Jared? But there was some surprise there when we met Arun two years ago at AllThingsOpen I want to say, was that right? Right

Yeah, I mean Three I remember when we were interviewed I didn't know about I mean I knew Intel is a good contributor to open source But to the extent that they are contributing And frankly that's what excited me The opportunity three and a half years ago That that's the storytelling that needs to be done

Yeah

That Intel was the I don't know what the current status is But Intel was a top Linux contributor for almost 20 years We were the founding members of Linux Foundation CNCF, OpenSSF, all of these top-notch foundations We were among the top 10 contributors to Kubernetes Among the top five of OpenJDK Among the top three of PyTorch TensorFlow, so on and so forth And with the maintainership role in PyTorch and TensorFlow We were committing upstream contributions From other CPU companies into PyTorch Creating space for them So we were really doing not just very Intel self-centric contributions But very chop wood carry water kind of work So in that sense Three and a half years ago The hope was that yes we tell the story more We drive more value towards CPU But that was pre-ChatGPD world And I joined February 2022 And since ChatGPD launched in November of that year Everything changed

I think that's when we spoke actually was 22 So it's been three years That's right Times flies when you're having fun And of course Intel has had a bit in choppy waters For a little while now And it's just a huge corporation 110,000ish employees at its peak I think they're obviously trying to reduce down I read to 75,000 by the end of the year Which is quite a drastic cut While you're there You're heads down You're doing these things over the course of time The last 12 months, 18 months Was the writing on the wall Did you feel the pressure coming Or was it a complete surprise to you When your whole division was What do they call it?

Corporate restructuring Yeah, restructure

That's what they're called Yeah, corporate restructuring I'm sure there were whispers, right? Like this stuff is Other people were losing their jobs

For sure Well, last year or so I would say we definitely saw the writing on the wall Not to the extent that the entire team will be eliminated So I did not expect that frankly Coming to that extent Over the years I was there We were definitely trimming team constantly Constantly doing budget realignment That's part of the job So no regrets, no complaints about that That how do we justify the cost How do we justify Hey, you're gonna sponsor KubeCon at the top tier level That's 100k sponsorship Then 100k budget Then a 50k travel, et cetera Logistics, et cetera So you're gonna spend quarter million dollar on a running an event And how do you justify the cost? Okay, so let's trim it down maybe Not do the top tier sponsorship Let's do the second tier sponsorship kind of a thing And let's send less people Let's make sure we are not making people fly from North America to Europe You know, let's leverage the local European developers that we have So all that change was constantly happening So that was constant tripping that was happening And last year when Pat was let go And then Greg, Pat Gelsinger was let go And then when Greg left earlier this year That's when it became very, very apparent That, oh, this is not going good And it's just like the very classical administration change, right? And the new administration came in Anything and everything to do with previous administration got to go And that's literally how it came across It was a very cold call There was no discussion The decision was handed down to my boss That, okay, you and your team are gone So I was not even communicating directly My boss, one of the most empathetic and kind people So she and I were constantly chatting But from the executive management The decision was handed down to us That, yeah, we don't need this Well, okay, well, I guess you made the decision So here we are We're gonna make best of it And as I said, when grief hits you, right? The order is usually death, divorce, and layoff And then there are five stages of grief So across the team, there were people of different ranges People very young in their career Fresh out of college, a year or two out of college And some were more experienced Some were more mature Some were at Intel for 25, 30 years Some not so that long ago And so different people had different capabilities Different ability, rather, to process that grief But for me personally, I was very clear That I'm just gonna cut through the first four stages There is no denial There is no anger There is no depression There is no bargain Yep, cut it, pull the card I am on the accept stage What next? Right away So it took me, I would say, maybe a day or so To kind of get over it But then I quickly moved on to the accept stage Okay, this is it Good riddance I'm gonna focus on the right technologies And do more fun things now

Yeah, how do you do that? Because a lot of us get stuck in those other stages Like, how did you actually execute on that plan? It seems like you make it sound easy Was it easy?

No, no, not at all Not at all It's often not very easy, actually, as a matter of fact And very often, you are kind of stuck in that loop Very well, said Jared, that What could I have done differently? What did I not do right? You know, can I go back and talk to the executive management And say, hey, but these guys are doing great If you want to build another dev rel team Why build another dev rel team? We already have the skill set, you know You're not understanding the value purpose of it So I think my point is that we did all of that We did all of that But staying stuck in the past causes worry And worrying helps nobody You know, worrying takes away precious time From your current present time And it's an opportunity cost And you can keep worrying about the past Without an opportunity to either influence it Or impact it or change it So the way I realize it is Over the last few years, last several years actually I've started listening a lot more about mindfulness and kindness And that's the thought process I've been bringing into my head Okay, you know what? That decision is done We were never part of the decision This one decision that the team is let go Is neither an indicator of the team Nor an indicator of the me And I've been doing a lot of counseling to a lot of folks across the team Even now that folks is okay We're all going to find a job And let the job not define your career Let the job not define your life I know you're going through a tough time But how can we help each other? How can we get through this together? And there are only better opportunities sitting in front of you So I think it's not easy But I guess there is no discount to aging And with that comes an experience that Yeah, it's okay, it's normal, it's part of life You know, how do I move on? I can spend five hours in the day worrying about it Oh man, I got, you know, it stings, it hurts, it's bad But then that brings your entire motivation morale down As opposed to my mantra is really action absorbs anxiety So what I've been doing is, you know Instead of being anxious about the future or worried about the past My GitHub profile has never been this green And I've been just loving it I've been vibe coding very heavily over the last several weeks now Using cursor, playing with root code, playing with client, playing with cloud code All sorts of fun stuff, playing with all sorts of different LLMs When GPD OSS 20B launched, I played with it I posted my comments and feedback about it AB testing, playing with all sorts of fun developer tools Which as a VP of 40 people team I never got a time to do Vee more hands-on But I would say in my career, I'm probably most hands-on With the latest and the bleeding edge of technologies now So in that sense, I could be worried about the past That why did I get laid off or pick up the latest and the greatest technologies And get myself ready and better equipped for a role that is probably waiting for me

That phrase action, what is it, tell me to read it Action absorbs, action absorbs anxiety I had to write it down because I got my little note back I knew I would have to take notes on this call I think that's a good one because the action to me And maybe you can help me understand this But I feel like when you take an action verse to sit there and stew or think about the past It one, it brings you to the present, but it also helps you focus Which means your distraction, you're freeing yourself of other distractions to focus on the problem set So the action is the focus That is so key Because I can be the one sometimes to sit there and stew a little bit And kind of be poor me for maybe a day or two, too long And then I got to get up, you know But this action absorbs anxiety is really good Thank you for sharing that

I think it's fundamental And usually I'm more of a doer than sitter and thinking about it And usually what I do is if there are 10 things And again, this is from one of the podcasts The approach that I've learned and that I try to follow is If there are 10 things that needs to be done in the moment I always pick the easiest thing Because as easiest thing will give you a quick victory As I've shown something here Now I can do a better thing on top of that Usually people pick Let me tackle the hardest thing first as the hardest obstacle is out But you're not even ready for that hardest thing You know, the more stumblings, more falls, etc. are going to happen So I think the easiest thing over there, tackle it That gives me a sense of accomplishment Then go to the second easiest, third easiest, so on and so forth So you build on top of that And that action kind of creates that virtuous cycle for you That flywheel for you, that feeds back into you That you are actually accomplishing something better And it's weird how, you know, we have that Daniel Kahneman You know, slow thinking, fast thinking kind of a thing You know, how our sympathetic versus parasympathetic system works And that to me is training my parasympathetic system It's not a flight or freeze moment I'm not in it for a fight I'm just going to train my parasympathetic system Which is in the back of my brain that it's going to be okay You know, you're living in a shelter You have a very nice and kind family Put your feet on the ground You're able to stand up You are still able to run 10k a day You're still able to body squat, you know, your own weight So it's okay

Yeah Those were excellent humblebrags I was just thinking about, I was just thinking about your running Because you said action absorbs anxiety But when you run, your mind is free Like your body is working and your mind is free And I wonder if you've struggled with that Because a lot of times while your body is doing stuff Your mind is so actively free That maybe you can run circles in your mind while you're running Has it affected your running at all? Or have you found solace in running? How's that been?

It's very therapeutic for me Very, very therapeutic actually I've been running for 40 years And more recently I've started doing 10k on a more regular basis One of the things that happened is For the first couple of weeks or so Because my son was in a summer break as well So I would sleep late, I would get up late Late as in like 7 o'clock And that's late for me 7.30 in the morning But now that my son's high school senior year has started And sometimes I drop him to school My schedule is back to sort of the normal self Like wherein I sleep at 10 o'clock I get up at 5.30, go for a run Because I need to go drop him to school So I'm back to that normal schedule And so I got to get my hour run or a lifting done in between But during that time, you're right If you're not doing anything The mind is free and this wanders all over the place But I have become a big podcast listener more recently I have a set podcast Usually starts with the day with New York Times headlines New York Times daily Headlines is about 10 minutes They give you four or five top hard lines of the day Daily digs 30 minutes into a topic Then I listen to a whole bunch of different podcasts This could be either TED podcasts This could be like a Rethinking podcast by Adam Grant This could be Hidden Brain by Shankar Vedantam More recently, I've started listening to 20VC That gives you the broader landscape of the industry And where the VC industry is going I recently subscribed to Anderson 16, A16Z podcast So I listen to that quite regularly Gosh, there are so many that I enjoy And if I look at my library here Think Fast Talk Smart is really good I like that one Consider This is a good one by NPR That gives an idea I love listening to Wall Street Journal They have some really good topics there sometimes My key podcast, typically in the long run that I love to listen is 10% Happier with Dan Harris And that's a mind-blowing podcast Because that's the one where I'm getting all of these Mindfulness, kindness, preaching Not worrying about the past or the future Hot Fork is amazing It's by New York Times again I listen to that quite regularly More recently, I started listening to IMO by Michelle Obama And her brother Craig Robinson So they host this podcast I think a couple of weeks ago, they had Barack Obama on that podcast Opinions is pretty good So a whole bunch of podcasts So I can usually circle through them

So 10k, how long does it take you?

I've been playing around with the numbers more recently Usually, if I'm running at a normal pace It would take about 9-15 pace per mile So about say 57-58 minutes But more recently, I've been experimenting And experimenting in the sense that If you think about 220 as a baseline 220 minus your age is your maximum heart rate So for a 50-year-old person, that would be 170 If you think of it that way Now, if that is your 100% heart rate You go down from there 100, 90, 80, 70, 60, so on and so forth Zone 2 is where fat burning happens If your heart rate is between that region Zone 3 and 4 is where your aerobic energy is burned With aerobic energy, you consume a lot more glycogen It's mostly glycogen-centric So you can consume Zone 3 and 4 rather quickly within an hour But you need to replenish it But if you're running in Zone 2 That fat-based energy allows you to run a lot longer So I've been experimenting Zone 2 But I really got to slow down my running So your usual pace is 9-15 But Zone 2, I have to run at 11-minute pace And I have a little bit of a time at my hand right now So I've been playing around with Zone 2 running So a 10k could take sometimes up to 70 minutes kind of a thing But then I'm really focusing on my watch That, hey, here is my Zone 2 bottom and the threshold heart rate I got to keep it between that Am I running too fast, too slow? Kind of measuring that and enjoying that dynamics while I have time

Interesting So that gives you even more time to listen to more podcasts Because that's a heck of a list you got there Holy cow, you listen to more podcasts than I do But so the running's been helpful The experimentation has been helpful Are you actively playing the field? Like are you in interviews? Are you discussing things with people?

Yeah, yeah, that's happening I have fortunately a very good deep network So, you know, applying a role through a company website or LinkedIn Doesn't get anywhere, right? It just lands in a box ATS whole system is broken So you really have to start talking to people, you know, getting a referral And sometimes just the referral doesn't cut it You know, so you got to go talk to the hiring manager essentially That, okay, hey, here's a candidate that I know And then you got to think about, okay, what do you want to do? You know, this is what you have done for the last 25 years What do I want my next 10, 15, 20, whatever that time frame looks like I want to do that So you got to craft that pitch ready That, okay, here are three things that really matter to me And here's what I'm good at Here's what I've done Be very crisp with that elevator pace, so to say So I've been talking to a lot of folks, all different kind of roles IC, founding engineer, founding CEO All sorts of roles CMO, SVP, all sorts of different roles But I am not in a rush to really pick up a role I think it's really got to match with what I'm excited about And what I'm excited about really is three things that matter to me Something that I really excel at is building that developer community How do you grow your developer community? It doesn't matter what product it is And last week I wrote an article on LinkedIn Which talks about how you grow your developer community Say from 0 to 100k Then from 100k to a million Then a million to 5 million Then 5 million to 50 million Then 50 to 100 million And I wrote that article based upon my experience Because I built some of those communities And what are the leading factors What are the lagging factors that kind of indicate what that looks like What are the growth triggers that you need to adapt So that's building that developer community is something I'm super excited about So that's fun The second part of it is And anybody that is doing technology these days Open source is a big part of it So if there is an open source angle to it Then I will excel all the more If there is no open source angle that's fine too But if there is an open source angle to it Then I will excel all the more So how do you tap that open source community To work for you in your basis In your advantage And how do you make sure the open source monetization model is in place So that's the second part of it And then the third part I definitely want to have AI as the central element of it So developers, open source, AI Those are the three key bullets that I'm looking for What my next role is going to be So I'm not too much into the title But I really care about those three components What kind of impact can I have in the company In the industry Because I know I've done wonderful things in the past So I'm just going to take my time to figure out what my next role is going to be

Well friends, I'm here with Damian Shingleman, VP of R&D at Auth0 Where he leads the team exploring the future of AI and identity So cool So Damian, everyone is building for the direction of Gen AI Artificial intelligence, agents, agentic What is Auth0 doing to make that future possible?

So everyone's building Gen AI apps, Gen AI agents That's a fact It's not something that might happen It's going to happen And when it does happen, when you are building these things And you need to get them into production You need security, you need the right guardrails And identity, essentially authentication authorization Is a big part of those guardrails What we're doing at Auth0 is using our 10 plus years of identity developer tooling To make it simple for developers Whether they're working at a fortune 500 company Or working just at a startup that right now came out of Y Combinator To build these things with SDKs, great documentation API first types of products And our typical Auth0 DNA

Friends, it's not if, it's when, it's coming soon If you're already building for this stuff, then you know Go to auth0.com slash AI Get started and learn more about Auth for Gen AI at auth0.com slash AI Again, that's auth0.com slash AI I was a little worried about open source there for about a week Maybe a week and a half when I started to see more and more of Like when we had the conversation Jared a little while back Just talking about if I could generate code so quickly Does it make open source no longer valuable Because we tend to open source full frameworks, full ideas You know, community led things that have a lot of different facets And bug fixes and like it's very, very rich It's a very rich thing And I had been like really, really worried I suppose Almost like deeply sad in my heart Like is something going to change fundamentally with open source Now that it's so in quotes so easy to generate some new code And I sat there for a little bit thinking that until I began to play more so And maybe you feel this way, tell me if you do But I kind of feel Now I fully feel like the change that's happening right now Is going to influence even more open source Because more people will develop more things that are uniquely viable to them They're uniquely viable to the workflows they decide to use And I feel like we're going to have a major, major boom In a proliferation of more open source out there More developers, you know, more people using software More developers contributing more software I was worried for a bit there How do you feel? Do you feel like it's Are you worried about less open source Or you think it's for sure more open source being produced?

I think it's definitely leading more towards more open source And I'll give you my theory behind that So if you think about the pendulum swung too hard Towards LLMs to begin with Oh 400 billion parameter model 500 billion, a trillion parameter model And those are the ones that we really need Those are all closed source models You should worry only about the performance part of it And we are good with that But now we are seeing kind of pendulum kind of coming back You know, those LLMs are great At all the things that needs to be done in the world But in order to solve my problem I don't need 99% of that functionality I need like a small language model That does my thing well and really well So if you think about that pivot is coming down Back from LLMs to SLMs, small language models 3, 5, 7, 15 billion parameter model That can very well run on my CPU And that's exactly where the innovation is happening And if you think about pick a vendor Microsoft, Google, Amazon is very very service centric But pick any other vendor essentially They have an open source model And those open source models are a lot smaller 5 to 7 billion parameter model Heck, even OpenAI has a GPT OSS 20 billion parameter model Grok, XAI just did their Grok model It's a large model but it's open source All of these large commercial entities are realizing That open source is the way by which You can bring the largest developer mindshare As quirky as Grok is But now open sourcing it You understand the quirkiness And then you can start participating and make it better So I think in that sense with AI frankly More open source is going to happen Because it's not going to be less Yes, people are going to be able to write more Generate more code The thing that I worry about though is I'm not a coder but I'm using wide coding tool And before wide coding I could have done Maybe 400, 500 lines of code in a day But with wide coding now I can do 4000 lines of code a day What kind of technical debt that generates for future generation So for example I remember seeing a keynote from GitHub Where they say hey we want to reach out to a billion developers Sure we want to reach out to a billion developers But what does that mean? The classic example they said is A grandma should be able to say on her phone Hey take all my Instagram photos Organize them in certain order Store them somewhere And she doesn't even say store Organize them in a certain order etc etc Now the idea was that is the NLU interface That you'll parse that You will end of the day you need software to organize all of that So if you organize that source code It's sitting in a GitHub repository So the classic example is great Where you get it work up and running for the first time Who maintains that source code? Things go wrong And the models are not there I mean I'll give you an example I was playing with the app I've been working on an app actually And that app really allows you to compare different protocols So REST, GRPC, WebSocket, SSE, GraphQL So there's a graph database And I make the query to the database And I compare them And I create a postman collection for it for example So I did all that Now I created a GitHub Codespaces version of it Where by single click you can have that environment deployed in your own environment And then after a few days I realized You know that Codespaces environment is not working So I asked Cursor that delete that Codespaces button from the repo And the dude didn't understand It says oh you want me to delete the button So I'm gonna infer you want me to delete the .codespaces And .devcontainer definition from the repo It struck it out completely I was like what the heck It's like I want you to delete the button only Am I not explaining it? Are you not getting it? Are you inferring it? So I think in that sense the amount of frustration The amount of technical debt it'll create Yes it'll generate more source code But the amount of debt it'll create is scary

I have a hard time disagreeing with that Especially with the latest round of releases I think specifically ChatGPD 5 has showed what I would call diminishing returns In large language model advancements It seems like you know when Sam Alton posts a picture of the death star Prior to the launch we're expecting something big And and it falls flat it's like marginally better whatever Like they they they fixed a few sycophanti things Which apparently people liked They were mad that you took away my sycophant Because I want more compliments But it just wasn't much And so that is leading me towards what I've been saying for a long time Is like what happens if we plateau in these models And the code that we're getting right now only gets marginally better Over the next two to five years There's going to be a lot of not so great code being produced And the people that a lot of people that are producing it and publishing it online Are people who don't know what good code looks like That's dangerous right that's dangerous so

Yeah I mean I was listening to the A16Z podcast this morning And Martin Casado and all these folks I think Adam Levy from Box They were talking about exactly that concept that OpenAI has been talking about AGI you know And they were asking what number do you put to it When will AGI be possible And GPT 3 and 4 we saw massive improvements in terms of significant improvement In terms of the LLMs But GPT 5 now is only marginal improvement if at all we call it that way You know some folks have actually even expressed frustration With the users of GPT 5 in that sense So I think if AGI was a thing to be delivered by 2027 This is not the kind of progress that we want to see over there We want to see more aggressive progression To be able to deliver AGI by 2027 So I think in that sense what does even AGI look like Is it a marketing terminology is it Washing you know AI washing your product you know I've heard Danilo and Dario talking about yeah AGI is a thing You know we should be getting ready for that in the next couple of years But are the models really operating at that level Because this cursor dude which is using Claude 4 as a back end Deleting my dev spaces directory I'm not giving control to you at all

Yeah you got to turn the auto button off that's for sure When you request that change don't auto that one Definitely approve that one by manual submission

It's such a mixed bag because sometimes they do it so right And you're amazed and then other times they're just like

Are you a child you know you're obviously there's no cognition there So they're just but the way that I think about it It's like seriously dude you just deleted the entire code spaces file Like just stupid that's just stupid

Well and I have to sometimes like one of the most frustrating things that I don't like about it is He said okay you can commit to the repo but I don't want you to push to the repo I will let you know when to push because if other developers are using it I don't want them to have a half-baked experience And again and again and again I have to remind cursor Please do not push without my explicit constant okay I got it And then a couple of hours later it's pushing back to the repo Back to how I do things Right yeah I was like dude are you listening to me at all

It's kind of ironic because all these years computers just do exactly what we tell them You know like they're deterministic they they're calculators they just calculate things And they do exactly as they're told and we've always wanted them to be able to do more And to intuit and do all the stuff that humans can do And now we've kind of gotten a little bit of taste of that But it's also brought in all of our flaws of just like just not doing what you're told We're used to people not doing what they're told But we can rely on computers to at least do it If I tell you to do the wrong thing you're gonna go do the wrong thing And then that's my fault but at least you did as you're told Now it's just like maybe maybe I'll do it I'm told And it's like oh gosh what have we created

You're right it makes you wonder that Seems as I was reading an article and they were saying it's not about prompt engineer Prompt engineering these days it's about context engineering So it made me wonder that when I give that command to cursor That hey you know what delete that button Should I have said that do not delete the directory I did not understood that you will do that for me automatically So I think in that sense it does make you wonder How much of context should I give it And even if I'm telling you not to push to GitHub repo What made you change your mind that you're still doing it And then to talk about psychofancy you know it says Oh I apologize I should not have done this because you asked me to do that earlier And follow the command Don't ask me again and again So I think in that sense there is definitely immaturity in terms of What my son was my younger son was building an application And he was deploying to AWS and all of a sudden the entire DynamoDB database was Nuked by cursor And he was like what happened And I said well I'm glad we set up you know daily backups So you have a backup you can restore from that So things like that very very immature right now

You know I've you gave us a laundry list of the ones you're using You mentioned like clod code You mentioned some of the obvious ones Cursor you mentioned cursor But you haven't gone back to other ones you're using I'm a fan of augment code One of our sponsors as well but big big fan of their tool I think it's arguably one of the better tools to use out there I like amp code a lot as well But I haven't had this challenge where it randomly deletes things And I think it's because you mentioned context engineering And Jared you may remember this way back I think way back is like in this year So forgive me by saying way back by by just a few months ago I said you know what it is it's document driven development And this spec driven development But I was like I like DDD better it sounds cooler And so I was like document driven development is the way to go You have to document what you're going to build And then give it that clarity is the is the spec is what you decide is what you designed And our friends in the python language community they have peps I think it stands for project enhancement proposals I believe Or is it python enhancement proposals? So this idea of peps and so what I've done In my work playing with this is I took that model of peps And I've borrowed it and replaced it and it's project enhancement proposals And so I take I've taken the document driven development as a as an operating system And I've implemented something I'm calling agent flow And the way all this flows together is a way for these agents to draft peps Implement that work successfully Document what I'm calling knowledge base articles or KBs Bugs maybe even or even updating back to that pep Or even builder logs which are like stories of what they do to build And this entire workflow I'm calling agent flow It's it's groundbreaking I think I think this context engineering is the way to go pep engineering However you want to call it but document driven development Giving them a full spec of a feature and not like build the whole app But more like make this thing better in these ways And it's very clear there's phases in there there's whatever And it's doing all that work all I'm telling it is the rough idea And all I'm playing with really is like little CLI tools like a granola CLI Don't don't get upset granola I reverse engineered not me but somebody else the agent Reverse engineered the unofficial granola API Just so I can extract markdown files from granola granola AI it's so cool But this idea of like document driven development and agent flow to me has been just Impressive and full of results like positive good results

That's pretty awesome Yeah I think my flow has been similar For example I don't do discussion in cursor All of my discussion is with chat GPT So hey I'm formulating an idea because I don't know at what point of time cursor will trigger Let me start implementing the report Don't implement the report right now I'll let you know when I need to implement the report

Stop don't do it exactly

Right so what I do is I discuss with chat GPT That here is what I would like to do What about this what about this what about this So I craft my prompt from chat GPT Because chat GPT can maintain the session So as I'm doing back and forth and I say all right now craft a prompt Now you understand my requirement I think I've communicated clearly So give me the requirement So I read it I make sure that everything is documented correctly And I say make this as a prompt for cursor Then I give that prompt to cursor And then it says boom now you go generate the first shot of the repo And usually I commit the first set of the repo and then I start tweaking it For developer experience whatever that needs to be done Then the other tool that might be worth looking at as you're talking about Adam is Amazon Kiro that was launched a few weeks ago And that they are doing exactly what you're saying about spec driven development Or document driven development Where you can define the spec I've heard good comments about it I was not particularly impressed by myself I didn't see much value of it as such But maybe I haven't explored it enough But that is definitely worth a look Amazon Kiro Yeah interesting

Yeah I think we have a show coming up with somebody from the Kiro team There was a great post on x a couple days ago about this topic And it was I found it funny I'll share it here Programming has quietly turned into a practice of making micro wishes to a genie The art is making the wishes in the right order in just the right way to eventually get what you want And I think that's been that's approximately true Now the quote tweet as we used to call them back in the twitter days is even funnier Programmers don't realize that this is exactly what their PM's relationship is to them So we are now the PM's you know They used to be making micro wishes to their programmers trying to get what they want And now we're doing it to our quad code or our cursor

Yeah I mean I was I was reading about like I played a little bit with replate I played a little bit with lovable all of these different tools Just to kind of get an idea of the landscape that what are the tools that people are doing I mean and the more you play with them I mean if you think about lovable has reached 120 million dollars ARR in seven months Seven months that's astounding This is this is this 100 million dollar ARR companies used to take three to five years And at 100 million dollars they say aha I'm ready to go IPO The landscape the dynamics are very different cursor is almost a billion dollar ARR Almost a billion dollar ARR and I was listening to 20 VC podcast They were talking in that podcast that by end of next year it'll potentially be four billion dollar But then this morning they were also talking about on A16Z Or I think different different podcast about the AI bubble Because what is cursor? Tomorrow if say anthropic says we're not gonna let you use clod Cursor is gonna fall flat Because that is they're really relying upon the back end of the clod And all of these companies anthropic open AI they're all burning money They're not cash flow positive yet right you know yes their valuation is 60 billion dollar or 500 billion dollar whatever that number is but they're all burning cash so they're burning more GPUs today so they're not earning money and if cursor is just like a VS code nicer interface on top of clod why would anthropic not build deeper features with clod code So it's TBD that cursor continues to stay the market leader versus clod code kind of picking it up so I think all of this landscape is very dynamic and then on the parallel side you start seeing tools like cline or rue code these are open source wipe coding tools these are becoming popular as well you know if you look at cline they're what two and a half million developers using it if you look at rue code they're about 20,000 stars to the repo and they brag about how you can use they're not tied to a back end model you can choose whatever model you can even choose open router so I played with this I configured I believe in rue code I configured open router and in five dollars literally saying what four dollar fifty three cents I could create a full-blown app that could talk to my Strava and get me some details I think you can actually start quantifying dollars in the lines of code that are being returned and you can start justifying these tools more and more yeah five bucks get an app kind of cool I

think that's that's kind of what I mean like I think I don't know about the open source side of that but I definitely think there'll be more code I wonder if the world will be invited to somehow solve little problems in their house but I really feel like I'm gonna eat my words on this one because dig this this is sort of a sort of a side tangent but I was talking my wife as you would when you're driving and I think I was saying like something like I had a conversation with somebody and I said I compare windows and linux and she said that person has no idea what linux is I'm like they have to know what linux is and I was comparing them I was just saying like windows versus linux in this one case I'm like and by the way this is linux you know like this thing is linux I was doing a comparable I'll save you the story in the backstory on that front but she's like they have no idea what linux is I'm like babe don't you think half the like most of the world knows that the internet the most of what we do in the world runs on linux she's like no absolutely not and I'm like but here's me the naive hopeful one I'm like no that's got to be true like it's so true for me it has to be that true for so many other people she goes on facebook and she posts the thing and says she essentially re-asks my question and there's so many hilarious comments and like the internet has an operating system like you wouldn't believe the things all that to come back to say five bucks get an app that seems kind of cool I want that for the world I want to empower people to create software I think more so in like home labs or in home spaces where they can solve their own problems but I don't know I don't know if that's really gonna be a thing it might be a

while till that gap closes I want that too and I've been on this personal software kick you know this Adam I've been talking about you know a home code freezer and like single-use apps and yeah now we

can just vibe code up our own little solution it doesn't get published it doesn't have to be for anybody but us and I want that for everybody because you know the power of like just scratching your own itch and then moving on in life like that is so awesome if you do it 10 times in a week now all of a sudden you're you're saving all this time and effort but then I saw somebody say the other day which struck me as true they said everyone's gonna have their own vibe coded app just like everyone's gonna have their own 3d printer in their house because that never actually happened like 3d printing was supposed to be this revolutionary new technology to be one in every house you're gonna print your own furniture your own this your fixes yeah it's like it's cool and a lot of people make really amazing things with it but it never actually permeated not yet at least mass market like not I don't even know of all 150 people in my personal network that

everybody has according to that one guy I don't like two people that have a 3d printer you know and they're just feel like this might be like that yeah what's that there's they're super

nerds or they're just tinkering or they're creating like they're creative types no offense

but like keychains and like trinkets yeah that's fun cool stuff or like maybe they fix a a shelf or something but yeah it hasn't actually done what everyone said it was going to do and because it's

technically complicated it's fault there's a lot of faults you can run into we have a 3d printer we bought a cheap one should have bought an expensive one because it's just been a headache and so it just sits in the closet you know it's like and I feel like vibe coded apps are going to be kind of like that it's like yeah those are easier to get going than a 3d printer but maybe on a similar trajectory yeah I don't know well and I think to add on to that you and I

live this world on a regular basis but can I ask my my wife is a tech you know she's really awesome she is a director of technical programs at NetApp so she's very technical in that sense but she's not a programmer she has a master's in computer science and undergrad in computer science as well but she left programming a long time ago but can I ask her that hey you know why don't you try white coding wait what what am I doing here like why do I need to do so I think that's one friction point frankly and the second friction point is okay so I can't ask her okay download cursor and give it an idea on what you want to build so you're right in that sense you know it's like yeah sure I will play with it for 15 minutes because if you want me to but that's not something that I'm going to build an excitement and carry on forward you and I kind of live this thing on a daily basis and my github profile is super green because I'm chunking out lots of code kind of giving it that experience that I want and tweaking the code accordingly but that's over life that's not everybody's type so I agree in that sense though and I worry about it that lots of code is going to be generated but the amount of technical that it creates think about five years out from now how many repos are going to be dead because they were created five years ago and never maintained and now cves vulnerabilities all of a sudden are skyrocketing

that's the case right now even like you look up I did this recently I looked up dns servers on github like what's out there in open source that is like dns resolver related because I told you this jr recently I replaced piehole accidentally but it's been kind of fun I'll share more another time but there's so many results and there there's some experiments there's so many dead repos out there now before vibe coding before chat gpt really helped everyone leg up and leverage ai to generate so many lines of code in a day from 400 to 4 000 as you had said before but I think yeah it's gonna get even even more I wonder though like technical debt like if it's a random application that I open sourced on github or I published to github because that will become the thing it won't really be like I open sourced it will be like well I need to use github because github is essential in the you know the build stage and the ci stage to get to production or whatever production is or live on the internet they may even say you know like how do we get to technical debt if I'm just building one-off things that sort of matter to me it has to be adopted and absorbed and you know communities have to surround around it and stuff like that to become technical debt how would it how do you think it technical debt would result

so it's not about your personal apps that are going to cause technical debt right now imagine if I'm working on kubernetes right I take a look at the issue I suck up the entire core base in cursor and I say I want to resolve this issue and it generates a whole bunch of code which I have no idea of how the code looks like and I said yeah send a pull request so that's the challenge because now kubernetes maintainers are required if they want to approve the merge request they are required to review that code which probably is not going to be part of the standard and all those things because you're not giving it enough context and it doesn't understand all of that and so those are the places where it's perfectly fine to create your hobby apps you know but it's gonna 10x your improvement for sure and I've been enjoying it so but is those projects where projects like pytorch or kubernetes or open jdk where I start kind of injecting this wipe coded code and that causes a problem then I think maintainers are going to be all over this

they already are so just yesterday in changelog news I covered Mitchell Hashimoto's recent decision on ghosty to require disclosure of all AI tooling contributions in every pull request for it to be considered in ghosty so if you submit a PR and you used AI tooling and you don't disclose that you did it's like an insta close basically and I'm sure Mitchell knows what that looks like he must because he's just fed up with it and he thinks that it's common courtesy now to say hey this was written 90 by clod code at least then your maintainers know what they should expect like as I go in a code review and so that's just one step that one guy has made I'm sure other maintainers will follow suit and hopefully github actually creates some sort of processes around this you know I know there's the co-authors line and get where you could like cosign that this was written by Jared plus cursor or whatever it is but if you formalize these things then we can have more clear what do you call it disclosure I guess of who actually did the coding and that will help us to avoid some of this stuff I think because some people are actually submitting stuff that adds the feature they want but they don't know how it adds the feature they want right they're

trying to be helpful and they want a feature and so they submit a pull request written not by them

but it works and so it's like okay yeah that's where I think it comes back to it's still just too hard it's just still too hard to to be a developer or to develop I guess debtless software

like that's yeah the debt-free scream the old Dave Ramsey debt-free screen with software yeah it's

it's being a developer or making software however you want to frame what that role is these days as it changes I think it's still just too hard it even though lovable may get you there quicker it doesn't it doesn't like once you get a customer or if that's a commercial facing application or anything beyond a toy you face serious challenges at scale or even at not scale like your sale could be a hundred couple could be a couple hundred people it could be whatever your little thing is whatever version of skill you're talking about but it's it's still just too hard there's still too much awareness of what a developer does from a terminal to production even terminology I just said like open sourcing versus publishing to get up that that's not you know the same to everyone or production or ci or all these different things that happen in the build stage that's not common knowledge and it's still just too hard I think for most people and Arun you mentioned your wife and how technical she is but back to what I think you were saying was that she doesn't have the patience because that's not what she's trying to accomplish she'll play with it as a tool because she meant you mentioned to go and play with it and see what she thinks but I think a lot of people will like patience to put together what we as developers have had to put together for so long and I wonder when will it actually get easier I think it's easier to generate code but it's not easier to generate good debtless code I think that's really

the key really that how do you I'll give a classic example right I was working on a simple GraphQL backend so it load the data from a text file and it creates a GraphQL visualization and my son came back from office yesterday he was asking me dad what library are you using I said I don't know cursor picked up a library the point is that you are getting to that point because cursor gives you that ability oh I'll pick up a good library it'll look good if you're caring only about the developer experience you don't know if that is the right library you don't know if cursor is really checking that does that library has enough star folks maintainability or is that cursor's preference so you don't I mean as a developer you go through that mental process that I'm gonna pick chart 3js because that is the top-notch library again it goes back to context engineering if I'm not giving the context cursor will think what is right for it and then it'll move on and you have no knowledge of how this is being implemented and if you have no knowledge that is scary putting that code into

production is scary yeah these LLMs are like brute force they have they have to give you a result they're designed to give you some version of happiness I even tell it sometimes like don't don't yes man me okay don't yes person me give me critical thinking to defend your decision or you know explain why mine sucks or whatever it might be but don't yes person me into the next

phase because your job is to give me results absolutely right I'm so sorry I won't yes person you yeah if you give like a suggestion to say culture which is using Claude back and you say hey this doesn't look right you are absolutely right let me go fix this

I couldn't even think of this yeah I know yeah because I don't actually think they just auto

complete and that's the point right we call it AI is very artificial and not intelligent yeah

well we're good with marketing terms around these parts I don't want to defend it deeply here but I do want to say I think that that's one thing I like differently about augment code honestly like they have this I don't even know what it's called like some sort of context engine it's got something in it where I haven't seen quite that same behavior where the yes person yes man whatever you want to say is in there it's it seems to be it retains things I've told it even after a few prompts or you know kind of like back and forth later like I've been very surprised at how much it retains of the the core goal and I don't know if it's the peps or if it's the agent flow or if it's the DDD or whatever it may be but something in this flow that I've been doing doesn't give me that result it's actually been quite uncanny I've been I've been surprised at how well it seems to retain the context and it's without me prompting it for the context like it retains it in some way so I don't know if it's my what I've been doing the way I've been doing it or it's augment codes when I do really do the rag method of of you know retrieval and stuff like that but this context engine I think it might have some different smarts with the way it looks at your code base and it retains certain contexts I'm not really sure but I haven't had quite that same that same experience it's been a bit more joyful it's probably some traditional software

engineering they're doing in order to provide the model with that context and everything that it

needs a lot of the differentiation right now between these tools is how much software you write around the model in order to really put its best foot forward in a continuing fashion and we see we see that in different ways be better or worse and that's really kind of different because other than that there's not much that differentiates these things today it's really hard I think as a product designer to especially with the chatbots especially it's like house clods chatbot ui or buttons or whatever any different than chat gpts really there's not much there they're just like their own wrappers around a model which is why so many people have made money just putting better wrappers around the same model and getting people to adopt them but there's not much there's no moat there and that's why I'm just laser focused on the quality because it was so bad for a while that I was like what are you people talking about I'm talking about the code gen quality up until clod 4 where as listeners of this podcast know I've been genuinely impressed the first time where I've been like this code doesn't suck every time I could use this is maybe this is better than what I would have written like I'm actually impressed that being said there's so many things that make it not 100 like where are we on the ais can write all the software you know spectrum I don't know maybe we're like in like the 94 they can do 94 of what you need to have but the last six percent is like everything that that's really what I've been watching like can they make that jump because

until we don't have to look at the code anymore we absolutely have to look at the code and if we don't know how to then we're just an idiocracy and we're in serious trouble like Arun's talking about

like serious trouble I'm well just to be clear I'm still looking to code deeply I'm still reading the code I'm actually learning more about different software as a result of that which is great because it's like well here's in my own mental model I know what I'm trying to accomplish with this reverse engineered API or creating these archive with 7z which is something I've been doing I wrote this bash script a while ago that I wrote personally and then chat gpt helped me made it better and then recently cloud code wild my world and just totally improved it and I was like whoa it's really just wild how you still have to look at the code I'm still looking at it and I'm learning more because my context of what I'm doing is personal you know you can learn something more than you actually care about the thing like when you go through a training and you do a demo application it's a to-do app or something like that something trivial or very common you're like you know what I've seen this a thousand times sure I have some context for a to-do app but in my case I'm solving a real problem which is being being able to better archive large directories and I know what I want because I'm the user I'm the I'm the one who has the problem I know how I want to work and so I can care more deeply about the result it gives me and so I can follow the code and desire to follow the code even more so so I'm actually following it learning more sure then anything like this visibility of like magically prompting is not what I'm doing it's very calculated prompting right and then I'm also looking at the code as well not just prompt get wish production boom work see a buy go make millions and millions and or billions of billions you know it's it's different yeah yeah well you are the

domain expert so in that sense you know you know what needs to be done and you're intimately familiar with what needs to be done so in that sense the learning is always more and personally and I think Jared you were talking about this when the thinking mode is turned on when it's saying putting out the prompts that hey this is what I'm doing oh no never mind this is what is needs to happen oh never mind you know I made the wrong fix let me back it up that's where my learning happens so that kind of helps me refine validate update my thinking that this is how I should have gone about problem solving essentially and then validating that okay this is a code that

is generated kind of thing well where do we go from here Arun where do we go from here so

so I think I'm looking at lots of opportunities so far I'm exploring and I'm thinking about where to go I'm really enjoying being a free agent and all the learning that needs to happen but I'm also sensitive of the part that hey you know we are end of August almost September is a major hiring season but then once we get into October November December time frame then the hiring slows down so I'm thinking about hopefully I will find something that I'm really excited about and then I'll be able to jump you know on that ship essentially and be able to drive those initiatives if anybody cares about growing your developer communities massively you know tapping into it I'm available I'm available talk to me shoot me a simple mail Arun.Gupta at Gmail you can shoot me a mail you can see the work that I've done are you only looking for full-time

stuff or would you also advise or do like a consulting or like you interested in anything

is open game at this point really so anything is an open game and as a matter of fact I talked to a couple of companies more recently where they're looking for an advisor in a consulting role so I'm talking to them as well so I think because I'm a free agent I have the ability to do all of that but in the meanwhile if something solid comes up then we have to kind of evaluate the opportunities accordingly so yeah anything is game at this point really. Is there any considering

your history your work history has been like you said you haven't looked for a job in basically forever so it's how do you even do it that's not my question it was more of just an outside thought as you as you as you hear me but I'm thinking of the pressure potentially on you to your next role is because you've been at this company for this long with this kind of motive and this kind of direction and it's very clear do you feel pressure to that your next choice has to be you know the way you've been doing your career does it have to be this multi-year big big some ceremonious thing or can it be a bit more like I think most ICs have been in the last five years to ten years which is like one or two years here and there and more jumpy and more more temporal I would say is there

a lot of pressure on your next choice not really you know I am again trying to keep a very open growth mindset depending upon what the opportunity comes up I have not said no to any of the opportunities as I said you know there was a two-person company that reached out to me to be the founding CEO for example so I'm exploring those you know they're very very rough idea they barely started working on this for the last couple of months but exploring it's like oh that's an area that I'm not super excited about so and I don't have a lot of core competency in that CEO role sound very exciting but I need to really believe in the mission and the delivery of the mission and that sort of stuff so to me really that alignment with my value as I said developer open source and AI those are the three core components that I'm looking at it and of which developer and AI are sort of the more core components open source is naturally going to be part of it but anything that aligns and that whether it's an executive role whether it's a IC role whether it's a advisory role whether it's a consulting role I'm again keeping very open mindset here not trying to box myself not trying to be encumbered by the past that okay my next role I must be a VP as well you know I mean I was a director at Red Hat from there I went to VP at Couchbase much smaller company but then from there I went to IC at Amazon and from there I went to manager at Apple and then VP at Intel so I'm totally fine going back you know being an IC at a bigger company because I could be very valuable in terms of defining their strategy where the execution is on somebody else but I'm equally capable of rolling my sleeves up to help with the execution part of it so if you have a large team for example that needs help you know not just the strategy part of it but people who want to help getting started so I can certainly do that so I think again keeping options very open my opportunity is very open those are the things that I'm really good at and that's what I'm looking at I never really considered the fact

that's like you know when there's a hiring season I similar to you I just haven't had to look for a job fortunately in so long so I don't know that there's cycles in hiring flows I imagine there's a lot of folks who have had change maybe even fellow colleagues from Intel in particular and since you know when you made your list you said devs that was people open source that's software and then AI that's maybe the thing we're using to get to the software and the stuff so speaking to the devs that may be in this transitional period in their life some of them may be still in the in the grief part of it or the denial part of it or just some spectrum of where you've been you've you're kind of come out the other side what is a strategy for someone looking at the remainder of this year in terms of I'm not hired I need to be hired how can I get hired and the ticking time clock that may be happening because I never considered that September is when it happens in October November December it sort of chills out and diminishes until maybe the new year yeah I think I'm gonna go back to the phrase

that I made earlier you know action absorbs anxiety so I would recommend you know see because when you are in a job then you don't need to you need to prove yourself in the job itself but you don't need to demonstrate your profile externally now a few things that needs to be done make sure you get your linkedin audit done very clearly because that's how recruiters reach out to you make sure your core competency is called out make sure your photo shoot you know the photo on the top is a professional photo shoot make sure your about section is clearly called out make sure your work history is clearly called out not just the years but the actual skills that you did the exact work that you did have chat gpt cloud whatever review linkedin your linkedin profile edit it and make sure you spend time on that so that's that's one crisp part of it the second part of it is you also need to kind of build that profile externally so for the last several weeks I've been blogging twice a week usually one article is about thought leadership and the one article is about technical leadership so for example last week I talked about that thought leadership article on how to grow from zero to 100 million developers and after this podcast I'm going to record a video about the lab about the app that I was talking about I'm going to record that video and announce that github repo essentially and then I have another thought leadership article lined up for later this week you know basically if you are running a dev rel what your metrics should be and that's the discussion that I've been having with the developer relations foundation drf folks in lf so I think in that sense I'm just sharing sort of my blueprint and frankly that keeps me sane that again solving that easiest problem then the next and then the name the next it allows me to show me progress and the worryness could differ based upon the stage of your life right you know I'm at that stage of the career where I'm not worried about that oh I do not have a shelter and things like that or my elder son is already working so he's on his own already younger son is in a senior in high school so he's about to go to college there is no financial constraints per se so in that sense I don't have a rush that even if I don't get something solid in the next few weeks months as well I'm not in a rush no I'll do a consulting gig and as an athlete I'm very comfortable with being uncomfortable physically mentally things like that so that's something you're going to kind of keep in your head but again build your external brand so that that makes you a more attractive talent everybody has access to chat gpt cloud etc but so everybody's writing a very impressive cover letter very impressive resume what helps you stand out is networking with people so that's sort of where I've been spending having a structure to your day that for the first couple of hours I'm gonna scan through linkedin comment on people's articles so that you build that re-establish that relationship on linkedin there's a simple thing that you can say who viewed my profile so start engaging with those people if they're viewing your profile if there is an interest maybe look at what their posts have been start commenting on those so some simple tips but having that structure for the first couple of hours I'm going to scan through linkedin for the next couple of hours I'm gonna refine my resume whatever linkedin profile needs to be updated and then afternoon is going to be really digging deep into a technology and then blogging about it so I think if you have that kind of a structure because otherwise if you are you know sitting empty all sorts of weird thoughts coming to your head that yeah at least to me it gives more peace

and structure yeah idle hands kind of thing yeah get action do some take some action y'all I like that I like that action absorbs anxiety good job and this is not my quote this is I heard it from the podcast but I like that idea it's solid it's a solid idea I do like that a lot yeah what else what else is left on the set what else will we not ask you about I know we wanted to I reached out to you on linkedin a friend I was like oh my gosh how you doing we should talk you're late let's pod I'm like of course let's get you on the podcast what else is left on the set that we

haven't covered that you might want to cover no I think we have covered most of the things here I think my advice to people is be patient to yourself be self-compassionate you know oftentimes when you apply for a role it's a multi-week cycle recruiters don't respond back sometimes you don't even get to recruiter you may be submitting application few applications every day every week sometimes you don't get respond don't let that define you don't let that bring you down just keep chugging at it you know in a very relentless manner keep chugging at it each one of you that is looking for a job at this point of time has done something wonderful just focus on that part of it don't let the negative energy come around you at all just pull the cord on it right away because if you not gonna believe in yourself that's gonna show up in your conversation if you believe in yourself if you have the confidence that no I've done this you know yeah I've done this at scale you know and this is how I've done this at scale imagine what that interview conversation might look like you know mock it you know which add jpd can help you mock those interviews so I think start getting yourself ready so when the moment comes then you are ready oh yeah yeah so I think that's the key part I would still comment but otherwise yeah I mean it's a it's a road ahead the other statement that I love from bible I'm not a bible person but it is I really believe in it just because I don't see it doesn't mean the road has not been carved for me yet yeah and the moment you think about that oh you know what I don't know where am I gonna go it's not a straight road ever so hang in there have faith have belief in god or whatever you believe in there is a road carved out for you already you

just don't see it yeah you know something that you said there if I can just add one to what you're saying I think that's such a good idea to like mock up an interview one thing I love a lot about ai is the ability to sandbox I guess iteration like try things like have it do lots of scenarios and I don't know how it does it but that's a great example of like you can mock up like hey give me tough questions I will potentially have if I go for this interview like how and practice with it that's that to me is a pretty interesting thing I didn't think about that because you were suggesting like how to clean up your LinkedIn profile which is great but to actually train

train with it I think that's kind of cool yeah because the common saying is I'm not worried about 10,000 things you know I'm worried about one thing that you have done 10,000 times because you're going to be so good at it so train yourself well just figure out where do you fail what are your weakness what is your touch points what triggers you and how do you keep control under pressure so ask those tough questions let chat gpt help you let cloud help you ask those tough questions and think in your mind you know just prepare that pitch you know have those examples ready that in the previous work on in three years ago this is what I did so have those scenarios ready practice it that goes a long way and really that's the only way to go forward

for me good deal it's been good Arun thank you for coming back on the pod good seeing you well thank

you very much for having me I really enjoyed this discussion and very fulfilling thank you

changelog plus plus members are in for a treat this week because after the official show I asked Arun for his honest take on the US government buying a 10 stake on intel and he started with this yes that's coming right up unless you aren't in on it now's the time directly support our work ditch the ads hear what Arun thinks about intel now that he doesn't work there anymore and get other awesome bonuses sign up today at changelog.com slash plus plus because it's better it is better it's been better for years thanks again to our partners at fly.io and to our sponsors of this episode depo.dev and authzero.com slash ai next week on the pod news on monday jim mesnick from exo ruby on wednesday and christian roka from charm cli on friday have yourself a great weekend share the show with a friend or three who might dig it and let's talk again real soon