A different kind of rug pull

It's time for Changelog and Friends with Adam and Jared and some other rental We hope that you love it and stay until the end We're not offended, we know you're probably busy coding Coding Your caffeine intake is an actual problem So why don't we walk outside and we can listen to Changelog and Friends with Adam and Jared and Silicon Valley We know one day the gag will come But honestly that will probably be our finale

What's up friends? I'm here with a new friend of mine Jasmine Casas, Product Manager at Sentry She's been doing some amazing work Her and her teams over many years being at Sentry And her latest thing is just awesome User feedback You can now enable a widget on the front end of your website Powered by Sentry that captures user feedback Jasmine, tell me about this feature

Well, I'm Jasmine I am a Product Manager at Sentry And I'm approaching my three year anniversary So I've spent a lot of time here I work on various different customer facing products More recently I've been focused on this user feedback widget feature But I've also worked on session replay in our dashboards product With user feedback I am particularly excited about that We launched that a few weeks ago Essentially what it allows you to do is It makes it very easy to connect the developer To the end user, your customer So you can immediately hear from your Basically who you're building for, for your audience And you can get, basically have a good understanding Of a wide range of bugs So Sentry automatically detects things like Performance problems and exceptions But there are other bugs that can happen on your website Such as broken links Or a typo or a permission problem And that is where the user feedback widget comes in And it captures that additional 20% of bugs That may not be automatically captured I think that's why it's so special And what takes it a step level above These other feedback tools and these support tools that you see Is that when you get those feedback messages They're connected to Sentry's rich debugging context and telemetry Because often I've seen it myself I read a lot of user feedback Messages are cryptic They're not descriptive enough to really understand The problem the user is facing So what's great about user feedback Is we connect it to our replay product Which essentially basically shows what the user was doing At that moment in time Right before reporting that bug And we also connect it to things such as screenshots So we created the capability for a user to upload a screenshot So they could highlight something specific on the page That they're referring to So it kind of removes the guesswork For what exactly is this feedback submission Or bug report referring to

Now I don't know about you But I have wanted something like this on the front end Pretty much since forever And the fact that it ties into session replay Ties into all your tracing Ties into all of the things that Sentry does To make you a better developer And to make your application more performant and amazing It's just amazing You can learn more by going to sentry.io That's S-E-N-T-R-Y dot I-O And when you get there Go to the product tab And click on user feedback That will take you to the landing page for user feedback Dive in, learn all you can Use our code changelog To get a hundred bucks off a team plan for free Now what she didn't mention Was that user feedback is given to everyone So if you have a Sentry account You have user feedback So go and use it If you're already a user Go and get it on your front end And if you're not a user Well then hey Use the code changelog Get a hundred bucks off a team plan For three-ish months Almost four months Once again sentry.io

Alright let's start here So we are here to discuss the news Not cover the news But talk about it What's up Adam, how are you man?

So good, so much happening out there I feel like so much but yet so little Way too much

A lot going on but how much of it actually matters

Well I'm paying less attention to AI hype That's for sure

Yeah

I'm AI hyped out However

Thank you, you join me Cause I've been hyped out for a little bit here

I'm still using it so internally Lots of hype You know, lots of excitement about using it

Lots of internal hype

Oh yeah, I mean I use it on the daily But I've actually had a couple conversations At least one conversation recently That's actually a pretty good use of AI for developers They're not sponsoring us yet So I'm not going to mention their name But when they do I will tell you Until then, you know they might sponsor the newsletter Let's say in August We'll see

Okay, so stay tuned Until then Perhaps

Perhaps

Well you know the old BMC theme song says Adam and Jared and some other rando But Not today Today it's falsified Just the two of us

Just the two of us digging in

Digging in, let's dig into some stuff So the first thing we want to do is go meta Go a layer up And talk to listener Tyler Boyd Who put in an episode request May 15th About the news Not our news show But how to actually stay updated in our tech world That was the title of his request And he says this I find that most of these tech blog sites Have so many tutorials and random stuff Which is awesome But outside of listening to the changelog And a few other podcasts I'm struggling to actually stay up to date With what's going on in tech And does it even matter if I do?

Well yeah, the last part

Which I think is an interesting question

It's a punch in the gut Does it even matter if I do? Not to me But I think just generally I thought I punched you in the gut I mean I can get how that would land But what I find Jared And I realized this not literally last night But I had a slight aha moment last night There's a YouTuber I think he goes by the name of Beatemups Do you know this guy by any chance?

Beatemups?

Beatemups

I do not know Beatemups

I believe he is Australian I believe he is in the United States I believe he was living in Pennsylvania I think he recently moved to Austin But I think he's actually suffered from some burnout Because he works a lot Like he's like a creator Like he would be what I would consider a content creator Like if your life is constantly creating content You are, even identity wise, a content creator, right?

Okay

And what I realized was that If I'm trying to I'm a gamer by, I suppose, association I'm not like a hardcore gamer I'm a nostalgic gamer

You don't actually play video games

Right, I am not on the edge of the game world However, I enjoy games

Sure

And I find that my kids are actually getting better at games than I am We've been playing Sonic on Nintendo Switch I'm getting to the point, trust me

Okay

And I'm realizing like, wow, there's so much faster thinking or whatever

Fast twitch muscles, yeah

Yeah And they're beating me

Gosh

But then I realized when we had dinner I was telling my wife I'm like, you know, when we buy these video games for these kids I always, our source is go to this beat em ups guy Because he has a great opinion

So he's a video game oriented content creator

Right And if I'm going to buy a new game for the kids I want to kind of sift it through his lens And I think what Tyler might be pointing to is that The blogs, and this is the point The blogs that just have tutorials and random stuff Are not opinions They're just sort of facts Right How to get to here How to go there And maybe the tutorials sprinkle with some opinion But I think that what you find here is hard opinions That are scrutinized That it's waypoints to the future Rather than a blueprint to today's software, necessarily I think it's where we're going And this, the reason I shared that story was that I realized that I value that person's opinion a lot Right How does this person look at the new Zelda game Or the new Donkey Kong game Or the new, even the latest, you know, Mario Wonder Like that was an interesting game that came out And I'm like, I want to kind of hear this guy's opinion Before I go and buy this game Because I may or may not buy it Not necessarily because of his opinion But I do value it And so I feel the same thing to Tyler's feelings Like, how do you actually keep up with what's going on And I think we need more We've called ourselves tastemakers That's a synonym to curator But, you know, that's where I'm going

I tend to agree with you I think that it's a lot easier to find a few trustworthy Tastemakers that you jive with Than it is to keep up with everything yourself Because there's just so much Whether it's in tech, in video games, in music, in culture, in science Whatever you happen to traffic in I don't think you have to keep up all that much I agree You know, that's one of the things that I've said many times Around these parts Is that we cover what's going on in the world of software But it's not like everything we cover is then like adopted and used and leveraged And a lot of stuff is just like, well, now I know that I kind of have my finger on the pulse or my thumb I'm not sure which one's better to put on the pulse But I think your thumb has its own pulse And so you shouldn't use it So you should use your fingers I am not a doctor

Your pointer, I believe is what you use Your first two fingers is what you use for pulse checking

That's right Because your thumb actually has its own little heartbeat in there, I think

I think there's something with latency too With the beat between the two fingers Because it travels right down the vein

Your index finger is faster than your thumb is I learned this Because I volunteer at the homeschool track meet And they have us doing the timers, you know And it comes down to the millisecond sometimes on these close races And they say, if you use your thumb to start the timer It's going to be a half beat slower than if you use your index finger It's just faster

Really?

They just told me that, I didn't fact check it I just believed it

It is your trigger finger too So that might be totally accurate

That's true And I got an itchy trigger finger, especially when I'm timing

It's not called the thumb finger, it's called the trigger finger

Or a trigger thumb

The thumb is necessary though For the, you know, the opposable thumbs is what makes us, you know, as good as we are As humans

Just amazing

Yeah, anyways, back to the topic

So, finding curators and finding tastemakers And letting them keep up for you I mean, that's kind of what we do with news It's what we've done for a very long time Obviously, Tyler's plugged into the changelog already So, you know, we're not here to promote what we do necessarily Everyone who's listening to this already has found us And is at least listening to a little bit of what we're up to But, you know, find more people like that in different niches And then let them do that work And support them in what they're doing And that way you don't have to It's so much easier than keeping up yourself Now, of course, you still want to make your own informed opinions about stuff So, sometimes when you find a new thing, you have to look into it And maybe Jared thought it was interesting But he didn't really dive into it And you're thinking, wow, maybe this is worth diving further into And so you go do your own follow-up and stuff like that

But, I don't know

I don't, I think that you can also do that with individual blogs I mean, that's a lot of what I do Is I just read individual engineering blogs And I find the stuff that I think is interesting And I pull the thread And I think that that's manageable for folks Via RSS and, like, not having to check it daily or hourly As we do with other things that we think are important Like the Hacker News homepage You pretty much don't have to go to the Hacker News homepage, you know And you'll be just fine Let the Hacker Newsletter come to you once a week And see the best stories, you know, for instance Which that's a great aggregator of the top stories on Hacker News throughout the week And then you just get it once on the weekend And you can just scan that real quick And be relatively up-to-date in that way Same thing with Peter Cooper's newsletters If you're in Go, you know, Golang Weekly If you're into JavaScript, JavaScript Weekly I mean, he does a great job and has for many years I mean, how long has Peter been putting out those weeklies?

15 years?

Longer than we have with regard to the newsletter

Was it really longer?

With newsletters it was, yeah 100%

I think we were... Like, the original Inception was similarly dated I think around 2009 is my guess Not weekly If it's before that Like, I know he's been doing stuff But I don't know if he's been doing the weekly newsletters

Changelog Weekly definitely goes after him, doesn't it?

No, I know that I'm not suggesting that's not true

I'm not talking about podcasts, I'm talking about newsletters

Me too, yeah

Oh, so you're talking about a different newsletter we used to do?

No, I don't think... Well, we didn't start weekly until 2013

That's my point

Right, so I think 2009 is our real birth date So I don't think it was... I don't think he began before 2009

But we're talking newsletters, not podcasts He was certainly playing the newsletter game before we were

I'm not arguing against that I'm just saying, like...

Oh, what are you arguing? I'm not sure what you're arguing

No, I'm not arguing at all Oh, okay I was just trying to think, like, was it... Does it predate us generally? Not us in terms of, like, similarity Like, when we began in 2009, 2010 range Was he doing newsletters then? Because if that's the case, then...

Oh, that I don't like that I do know that Ruby Weekly was his first newsletter

Right

And if we can find Ruby Weekly issue 1 Let's do that Let's do that

I was using our birth date and age as a proxy, 15 years

He's on issue 709 of that particular one Uh, issue 1... Oh, no, it redirects Come on, Peter, maybe it's 001? Maybe it's...

Is it 709?

He's on 709 And I'm trying to, like, URL hack and just go back to issue number 1

Just based on the fact that there's 52 weeks in a year That maps to, like, 13 and a half years

And then you add breaks and stuff, because he takes some time off, you know He's from London, and those Brits, they like their vacations Their holidays, as they call them Yeah, so 15 years Point being, he's been doing weekly newsletters

So long, yes

For so long He's so good at it I subscribe to many of his, especially I read JavaScript Weekly And I check Golang Weekly when I'm trying to help the GoTime folks find interesting stuff to talk about So that's an option, newsletters, curators, you know I would say don't worry about it too much If you're listening to the changelog, you're already kind of plugged in, right?

I think so, honestly I mean, like you said, I don't think we cover the entire software world

No

Which does not upset me But I think we cover enough to give you the required pulse The required dip in, thread pull Should I go further myself? Does this support my curiosity? Are there others piling on? You know, is there a proxy to leverage?

Yeah

And I think the only challenge is choosing the wrong I don't want to say content creators, I really don't But choosing the right opinion makers, I suppose When you have a bubble by proxy Because you're kind of getting your opinion and your waypoints by proxy, obviously And if you, I suppose it's a job of us too, right? And I think we do this well Is point to others that are not us I think that's kind of what we do a lot We're really outwardly facing, far more than we're inwardly facing I mean aside from this podcast episode here They're not coming here necessarily for you and I to sit down To go through the stuff We do that a small handful of times throughout the year Where it's just you and I solo And I enjoy those times too I enjoy just having fun conversations with you That like the one on 1999 at Build was so random But I look back on that with like fond memories Like wow, like there was some aha moments on both sides Where I didn't recognize and realize as much of a movie buff as I am How much in 1999 was published And then you with Johnny Cash And Hurt, like you know, like there was two major revelations there You know, I think that was kind of cool

Yeah, we both learned something that day And it was, and a good time was had by all And by all I mean by both of us That's right If anybody else liked that episode It was only for plus plus people So you know, small audience and that was fun too Well, let's go through the stuff then So hopefully Tyler, I don't know if that helped you out at all But you know, episode requests are cool And we like to service our listeners directly if possible By the way to you listening If you do in our request an episode Whether it's an interview or a friend's episode or a JS party Whatever changelog.com slash request You can select the podcast that you want the show to be on And then you can give a guest You can give a topic You can fill out the form and let us know We read everyone We don't make every episode, but we read them all So what's been going on lately? Well, first of all, this is the July 4th week Here in the United States And so it's a the peak of summer holiday times So and yet there's still a lot going on I think we should start with some Should we start with the scary thing that I put in the news? The bell curve? Yeah, the bell curve

I say let's go there because I really appreciate personally And enjoy Mondays for change all news

Okay

And I like how you include this as chapter data That's so cool that even while I'm in my truck driving listening Because I literally was going somewhere And it was about an eight minute trip And I was like sweet I can get news in

Perfect timing Yeah, there you go

I was like, you know, I can compartmentalize I can get my fix and there I'm driving And thankfully my Apple play system supports the data that comes through So I got the image Yeah, totally On my heads up display kind of thing

On your dash, isn't that cool?

So cool Yeah, so I mean, let's pause for chapters Just like doing applause Right, right

Insert applause break right here Cheeky Do you like my subtle digs at people who use podcast apps that don't have chapters? You know, I'm always like, you know, if your podcast app supports chapters I tell them how much better of an experience they're having And for everybody else I described it What this is is a chart which comes out of the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis I'm not sure why they in particular have this information But they do And this made the rounds this week A chart from 2020 up until current times I mean May of 24 The software development job postings on Indeed in the United States And like you said Adam, it's a bell curve And it peaked mid 2020 really high And it has then precipitously declined back down And so we're trending down in software development job postings In Indeed in the US But probably a nice proxy for you know, what's going on in the software world And so that's bad Are we at the lowest ever? It's right down there near lows of these last five years And so this has a lot of people kind of up in arms We're wondering what's going on Is this the new normal? They said, you know, COVID was the new normal Turns out that was not It was an anomaly Is this the new normal? Is this an anomaly? Is it going to go back up again? Will it ever be what it was? A lot of just maybe FUD, maybe just uncertainty A lot of folks out of work and looking for work And realizing why it's so hard to find new employment Is because the jobs are just not there right now

If you zoom into this graph though Tell me if this is accurate to you where it begins in May of 2020 There seems to be like a rise just before May of 2020 Where there was a big dip And this like COVID was announced roughly in March

Right March 2020

For at least here in the US I think it was happening and I paid attention to it You know Thanksgiving, Christmas, January, February In you know the Far East like in Asia and India and different places And I was like this is getting scary Like I see that thing moving And I was like is it coming here? What is this you know? And then obviously March And I know because my son's birthday is early March We had a birthday party And the last thing we did that was major with crowds Was his birthday And shortly after he and I got super sick in our chests And looking back I think I got COVID like early on And that's just how But anyways that's beside the story I'm bearing the lead here Does it drop from 100 on this graph down to 60 in May 2020 Is that how you're reading it? So like there was an up and then an obvious down Because it looks like March would have been right before that Obviously like it's March, April, May And it's kind of going every other month or so For me at least on my graph

I do think that the lockdowns began And hiring probably froze for a while While nobody knew what was going to happen next And so it makes sense that the postings dropped Yeah like you said from 100 down to the 60s In a matter of a few months And then just climbed, climbed, climbed Probably as stimulus money was injected We had the PPP loans The markets were going crazy Valuations were high Money was easy We were still at ZERP Zero interest rate policy And it just climbed To where it was just sunshines and rainbows Up until mid-22 And then it just drops from there And of course we know what happened In our industry, you know in the tech world Everything tightened up Money got more expensive Layoffs began Hiring freezes began And it seems like we're still on our way On the downslope of that And where does the downslope stop Who knows what's explaining this Some people are saying this is AI already Hitting us where it hurts I think that's premature I don't think anyone's losing their job because of AI Maybe on the margins In the tech world Obviously in art and other places There are people who aren't as valuable as they were Because their job has been somewhat offset By language models and image models, etc. But I don't think any software developers Unless their bosses are pointy-haired bosses Who don't understand what's going on Are like flat out not getting hired Because AI is so productive right now I just don't think that that's the case

No

That's my two cents

I agree with that sentiment What I do see though is as it goes to the right past the bell Into what seems like maybe a flattening of sorts It's not quite a flattening But it seems it's down It's going down And we can't see beyond May Here it is July So we've got two months Or at least one month in the past That it continue down At the same time when you When you look at a market and you just inject As you mentioned when we were in ZURP And you have so much free money You're going to have some version of bell In a job market This I suppose the chicken little thing That you referenced in the audio version of this And I think also in the newsletter Because I don't read the newsletter I'm sorry

How dare you

Hate to admit that

You miss all the extras

I want the extras I don't know how to subscribe I'm just kidding I know how to subscribe It was a joke Is that it was very high Like that's like it's such a bit It's not like a little bell curve It's a very big bell curve In comparison to what would be considered If this the lows are the normal The non-normal the high is just so high

Right

And what drove that really I believe Because I study this loosely I say I pay attention to it Is you know when you have access to free money And you have I mean we saw valuations In the pandemic era So high I was like we saw unicorns being born on the weekly You know companies you never thought would be unicorns Were like wow we're a unicorn Well I mean that's just because It was a matter of inflation Which I think the entire world is filling I don't know about you Jerry But when I go get groceries even Like anything these days is just like

Everything's expensive

Yeah you gotta There's some things I'm like That cost that much There's no way How in the world does that thing cost that much I'm gonna go ahead and skip that I don't want to go on the Debbie Downer But I think it's because of free cash in the market When you have ZERP and you have zero interest Or very low interest or very free money And then even not just free But like a large injection of it Because when you have money that is free to lend And you have balances that come in As a result of those coming out It kind of creates money in the market Because money in a bank can be lended based on a multiple You know so that's really how a lot of this I think worked Was that there was a lot of free money in the marketplace And they had to use it And so they thought like you had said Is this the new normal Well let's invest in that new normal And then it was like whoa whoa whoa This is not the new normal But what do you think caused the decline Because obviously in the 2022 range We had non ZERP right We had this

Sure

Interest rates went up dramatically They're in you know In my lifetime some all-time highs I think probably your lifetime as well At least here in the U.S. so as a proxy

Yeah

So when you have that kind of thing happen It's more expensive to grow It's more expensive to expand It's more expensive to invest And so you have to I guess be more cautious Or more calculated with your growth And you have to sort of be more planned to win Rather than we might lose

Yeah I just think it's a lagging indicator You know I think it was just We see it now And we can plot the curve and watch it Of what was happening then And there are leading indicators And there are lagging indicators And it just seems like new job postings Over time Is a lagging indicator Of what was going on Which a lot of us felt very acutely I think If you recall like the beginning of this year My sentiment was like Hey we're on the other side of it We're kind of coming out and And I was dead wrong on that I mean I just felt like The sentiment had changed And I think now Looking back at the first six months of 24 Maybe some sentiment has changed But has it been actual change Seems like not so much But you know the stock market's back So some people are feeling like We're alright and

Yeah

The Fed hasn't done what they said They were gonna do with their cuts You know they're still holding off on cuts And so a lot of that stuff was Priced in and expected And hasn't happened And so I think people are still kind of just Waiting Trepidatious Yeah and it's an election year so

Yeah

There's so much uncertainty

I do think the other side of this curve Does change a lot Because like you said Just now it's an election year I think with it being an election year Regardless of which way it goes There's always change In this perspective here I wonder And I don't think there's any data to back this Like I wonder could you map Because I guess my question is like Okay so if this is true Which it is It's data backed Or if it's even by proxy true And again you cavitated this In the audio of the newsletter You did say hey by the way This is indeed data Based on the United States So it's definitely compartmentalized

Yeah which is just one company In one country

So I guess the question is For me at least And I don't know what questions you're asking yourself As a result of this But is like What can I do? Okay so what? So if this is true So then what? Kind of thing Then I wonder if there's any data Or if it's even possible To put the same Timeline together with Similarly marketed data of sorts I'm not even sure what this would be What kind of index would it go against Is opportunity Because jobs being available Does not equal Lack of value To be created in the marketplace This is where A lot of innovation happens The status quo Go get a job Work somewhere on someone else's idea Move that forward Is changing And so what can I do Is where is the most value You see in your purview Like if you can't get a job You're having a hard time getting a job Which I just feel for you That totally sucks It is If it were me I would be like Okay where What do I have Career capital in? What do I have domain knowledge in? Where do I see A lack of value being created Because money exchanges hands When value When problems are solved basically Like if I solve a problem And the bigger the problem is The more money And the more value in the problem solving And the value exchanging happens So if you want to get money You got to solve problems So I would say look for problems I don't think this bell curve Tracks to Opportunities Slash problems being solved Or to be solved It just tracks to Job opportunities In the existing marketplace

Yeah I agree I'll echo what I said I think last Fall Or maybe it was January with Gergay Rose when we had him on the show Talking about this Questionable Tech high rate market Is that there's never been a better time To start a business Especially if you are out of work You know what are your options Well you can just keep Pounding the pavement I'm not saying don't do that Looking for that next Full time job But also There is a lot of opportunity To create value Create new businesses And where does that Where are those opportunities right now? Well it seems like Similar to The past Where you found small businesses And maybe medium sized businesses Who are Handling all of their back end accounting All of their Processes, their operations On paper Previously Or On spreadsheets In Microsoft Excel And providing You know web development services To those companies In order to break them out of those little silos And really streamline their operations I mean so much money was made Turning Excel spreadsheets Into web forms I think similarly First of all that work is still out there It's not like it's done There's tons of opportunities still there to this day And there's a lot of people Making good livings doing that work But if you want to be more on the Cutting edge Of course There's a lot of low hanging fruit With this AI stuff I mean there's a lot We talked about summaries It seems like The Killer feature Of the current wave Of text based Models Is summarizing stuff You know taking a lot of words And making it a few words And taking a few words And making it a lot of words So summaries and slop basically And The real value is in the summaries Isn't it? I mean the slop is sloppy And it's whatever But the summaries are like super valuable So summarizing this document Summarizing this meeting Summarizing these emails Summarizing whatever Raw data a company has Huge value in that I mean you save so much time With a good summary And there's so many verticals right There's so many individual industries In which you can go into that industry And apply the basics Of Language models In a productionized way And hook them up with some summaries That they will pay you happily for I think that's low hanging fruit And I think there's lots of opportunity there

Can I mention the sponsor As a As a way of like An opportunity I really don't want to do this necessarily But like I talked to David Shue recently from Retool And I've always been a fan of them And they are a sponsor So take this with the Green Assault listeners We also don't like the blur of the line This is not an ad spot But as an example There's a lot of opportunity in the internal tools space

Right

Inside of companies There's people are being tasked with doing more with less And that's a lot of the reason why Retool is very successful Because they help you do more with less You can be a back end engineer Or an API developer And leverage Retool And build out tooling for your company And not have to be a front ender So you kind of get to minimize that footprint of a person You could become a specialist In understanding what SaaS Companies need From an internal tooling standpoint And find the ones that aren't using Retool And specialize in that And join their team temporarily as a consultant And say I would just come in and Tell you how Retool works And implement Retool for you And I bet you Retool would even sponsor you If you added so much value to them That you went from company to company to company And did that kind of thing And I think there's versions of that There's versions of leveraging These companies that are doing their accounting differently You mentioned on paper with Excel I thought the place we were going was where they're Outsourcing to tooling that specializes Where they don't have to be specialists And spend money on a tool Versus having to like become the domain expert And do it themselves They can sort of outsource a task so to speak But I'm thinking like gosh If I was a backend engineer Somebody who really understood APIs Really understood how a lot of the internal tooling Needs to happen or should happen For SaaS companies I would become that kind of expert And go out there and just implement Retool for people And you get to leave All the management behind right? Because Retool is going to do it all All you are is an implementer You provide your value You get in, you get out Maybe you stick around for some consulting Or some future whatever But at that point you're like in and out Maybe that lasts for a season Maybe that lasts for the season Between the dip in the bell curve and the rise Maybe it's not a long term thing But that's I really didn't want to use the sponsor Jerry But that was the best

Sure, no I like it I like it, I think Retool will like it Also not a sponsored mention Let's move on to some cool news Some good stuff Because you know we're down here in the mucky mucky

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The Ladybird Browser Initiative Of course, listeners Of our interview show, The Changelog Remember us Speaking with Andreas Kling From Serenity OS and how he was Really into this Browser that he and the Serenity team had been building For Serenity OS, well since then He has left Serenity And to focus on Ladybird That's the name of the browser And has been working on breaking Ladybird free from Serenity's clutches Of course, Serenity doesn't really clutch it But it was built for Serenity OS, but now he's working on Having it work on Mac OS and Linux OSes And so that was a really cool change That happened a few months back Well, just this week, just yesterday July 1st Andreas and others announced The Ladybird Browser Initiative The next chapter of Ladybird Which is being called Open source web browser We've been developing from scratch for the past few years First of all, before we get into the details Of this initiative, which are interesting Can we just be excited about This open source Cross platform Completely independent browser Haven't we been talking about how cool That would be in light of The various walled gardens that we live in Chrome Becoming weaponized By Google for lack of a better term And Firefox Losing its way With various initiatives That are not Firefox inside of Mozilla And Safari, which you and I both Enjoy, but obviously Has Apple's best interest in mind Like to have the new Like the new Firefox, right Instead of getfirefox.com Getladybird.com And because it's not just Serenity OS now Or will be soon, I'm not sure the status of that work It's going to be a standalone Cross platform browser Built by a guy And his team who really understand browsers, right

Yeah, pretty cool Very cool, I Echo your sentiment and excitement So I won't layer on there But what didn't surprise me Was when we talked to Andreas I think it says, does he say Andreas Or does he actually put something in there, either way Andreas, I'll just say Andreas I speak English and I don't have That accent, so I won't try Was that he had come From the Nokia days, you know this because you're on the podcast

With me, and then later to Apple

And was on the WebKit team, so like he This was an edge for him, like He did for his passion And for various reasons, you should go listen to the show Episode 554, so changelog.fm slash 554 We'll get you there The Serenity of Building Your Own OS He's got a great story, and it's very touching And I think he got Into Serenity OS for the reasons That it's a touching story And then ended up at Ladybird And that's why he sort of like stopped touching Serenity OS Because he was back to where his itch really needed to be scratched If that translates And he has the history of Nokia and Apple WebKit and Was on that team, and so he He was primed to be a good person to Lead this kind of initiative I'm very excited, I was actually Just somewhere last night for dinner And was standing in line In order, because it's a place we had to go to the counter In order, it's strange And the person in front of me get Firefoxed The clerk Really? I just barely overheard it She's like, gosh, I'm gonna go home tonight And install Firefox, thank you That's all I heard, and I said to my wife, I'm like Did he just get Firefoxer? But anyways, like he might have to Get Ladybird her, him, whatever What is the domain for this? Ladybird.org They should have tried Get Ladybird.org Just for

I think you can have both, you can have like Get Ladybird and redirect or something I think it's a cool, I remember I think Get Firefox Nerds will enjoy Get Ladybird, you know

Yeah, especially if it's like a nostalgic Nod and homage to what Was, was promised Was for a bit, and then isn't Much anymore I would personally enjoy that, I mean I was in the days of like Tabs were awesome, I know you were too IE's dead Long live Firefox, Get Firefox The whole push, like what an amazing Global grassroots effort At the right time Right? So crazy

Yeah, it was like You know, the nerd uprising And we helped everybody Free them from the shackles, so what they announced Specifically, is the Ladybird Browser initiative, which is a US 501 C3 Nonprofit, which will be tax exempt And its purpose is to drive Work on the browser and make it easier For supporters of all shapes and sizes To sponsor development They say, unlike traditional business models That rely on monetizing the user Ladybird is funded entirely by Sponsorships and donations from companies And individuals who care about the Open web, our nonprofit will not Pursue corporate deals or revenue Outside of unrestricted donations The software and its source code will be Available for free, forever And they have a board of directors Starring Andreas himself Of course, and The surprise entrant for me I was like, this is so cool Chris Wanstroth Founder, co-founder of GitHub CEO of GitHub for many years Now working on a Games company called Knoll Games Chris will be the secretary and treasurer Of this new Initiative, and I believe he personally donated He and his wife donated a million dollars As part of a seed funding For this nonprofit So, an injection To get things going, I mean pretty cool by Chris

Uh, very cool by Chris And I would even say I don't think I've seen Chris Definitely not personally In the wild, I would say, like I don't know how to phrase Otherwise, like in quotes in the wild On the internet, since I think being on stage at Or something with GitHub You know, like the last moments of the Acquisition by Microsoft Of GitHub, like that was the last time I've seen him Out there Proclaiming anything

Yeah, so in addition to, he's been on Twitter slash X Talking about things for a while, but he actually Put out a video, like a three minute video Right Announcing his participation in this deal And that was the first time, I remember looking at him and being like I don't think I've seen him since he had long hair Like, he looks a little bit older, a little wiser A little more cleaned up And yeah, pretty cool To see him, first of all he disappeared for many years Now he came back with this Gaming company And has been talking on Social media some But really getting out there And putting some of his personal money behind A very cool initiative

The free forever aspect of this Is the clincher, like I love I love that Chris is involved And his family donating A million dollars to this initiative Is telling And I think him coming out of the Woodwork, if that's a phrase you want to use Which is known, but I don't think that's necessarily the case Because as you said, he's been on X talking But not visually Like this was a video, this is like, hey I'm going to put my Full likeness And personal words, my voice even behind This new push But the fact that it's software and it's source code This is quoted, quote, the software And it's source code will be available for free Forever, end quote And just the need Of, I think Chris said it best Was we're not trying to beat Chrome, it's not about winning It's about choice It's about something that is not owned by The big market players Something that's independent, something that Is backed by a non-profit Something that is for the people For individuals And, you know, with it being Open source means that you'll have your Opportunity if you feel so inclined To participate And to be involved Probably on GitHub, right? That's probably what's happening As we know, which is a good thing So I think Great news, but let's Let's consider, if you don't mind Hypothesize, Jared, two years from now What changes? Where do you think they'll be in two years? What will change?

Well I do believe they will have Those Mac OS and Linux Versions out there It will be freed from Serenity OS I do think that It will probably be packaged Up nicely in every Linux distribution That's mainstream So you can apt-get install Ladybird Who knows? Maybe in two years time It'll become a pre-installed Browser on a few big distros Which would be great There are of course many things That go into a modern browser initiative I think they'll have A good foundation of Websites rendering correctly That of course is like The main thing It must render websites Correctly, but there'll be a bunch of Stuff missing which may or may not ever Be there, I mean if you think about a Windows Version, they don't have any plans to support Windows in the short term They want to eventually But it's not a priority Will it have a iOS or Android Version that syncs to your browser? No. This is going to be very much A desktop browser This is going to be a focused thing For, especially In the short term of two years But maybe for a very long time And so there are things where it's like Why do I use Safari? Well a lot of reasons Why I use Safari is because of the Integration between my laptop And my phone and that continuity Stuff All that stuff is not Going to be a thing This will be very much a choice To use this browser And one that will still require Especially for those of us inside our walled gardens Some sacrifices In order to leave the walled garden It's not going to be a one for one switch And so that will be a Challenge for Ladybird as adoption Means you have to give up something That you are otherwise Happy with But I think a lot of people are definitely willing to do that Especially on the Linux side

What do you think? I have a couple more questions And I do have a point too My own thoughts I know you all covered on GSParty And I haven't listened back to this episode yet More so the The development I suppose With Apple and Multiple web browsers Can you catch me up on what the status of that is? I think that's the clincher If we can get native Ladybird That doesn't have to have Safari Or WebKit I suppose As it's underpinnings Then you can do a lot of what Safari offers you and I as Apple users When you have The application Installed on iOS and you can have Cloud syncing with tabs And whatever if that's Something that Ladybird wants to offer Give me a one minute Update on what that status is for I suppose everyone in the whole world Not just the EU

So historically every web browser In the app store Was a skin on top of WebKit So Chrome, Firefox Vivaldi You name it, Brave All of these iOS apps Have WebKit under the hood And have to use Apple's APIs So they're basically The Chrome UI and maybe the Chrome sync engine On top of that So Google is very much hamstrung in what they can do The recent EU Laws that have passed Break that Bond in the EU And so Apple will allow A, they're allowing alternate app stores Although it's a huge pain in the butt To get one of those spun up They made it significantly difficult But they will also allow alternate rendering engines And I believe And I'm happy to be fact checked on this Because it's been a while since I looked at it I believe it's in the EU only And here in these United States of America Nothing changes But in European Union Countries You will have the ability to have Alternate rendering engines Which means Chromium can run on your iPhone Which means Gecko or whatever the Firefox thing is currently called Can run on your iPhone And this will be great because Then we'll at least be able to have the comparison And say, oh Looks like Chromium on iOS Is faster than Safari on iOS and etc It will spur some innovation and some competition But in the day to day lives Of Westerners I know that many, many countries in Europe Are also in the West, but you know what I mean Those of us on this side of the pond Our lives are pretty much going to be the same

At least for now So I think when it says in the same announcement It says, quote, but it is still Very far from finished We want to turn Ladybird into a browser That you can use every day For all your web Related tasks, it should be fast Stable, support web standards And protect your privacy A browser for you End quote, and so that's why I went to that I feel like you're going to have the pain Right, I'm a Safari user I'm only truly Really a Safari user because it's minimalistic On iOS which I Appreciate and It's also on my Mobile device and there's continuity That's like the only Real thing I think that From the surface, now there may be other things I uncover By using something else and it falling short But thus far that's the true reason The true feature I'm for is that continuity And the cross device Availability I think if this has a real shot To do, I wouldn't say Damage, because that's not the right phrasing But the good, I suppose That it's trying to do for the people There's so much in the protect your privacy Quoted Phrase in what I just read That I think needs to be Examined because Apple is notoriously known for Protecting your privacy and Caring about that as a feature of their Their business However, if you make all App installations in my country Require your engine Is that for you? Some would say yes and some would say no because of how Deeply Apple wants to Own the entire Spectrum from 0 to 1 So that they can provide the Best user experience That's their innovation factor That's their money maker Their ability to care so deeply And preemptively know what you want To give you what you want without even knowing it I think for me It's got to have And maybe this pushes it Maybe this is what we need as a tipping point to say We as users want choice And why should it only be given to the EU Because there are certain laws passed That is not a thing You should do because a law was passed It's a thing you should do because you care about your users And I think that Innovation happens whenever there's competition And you can't have competition When you're forced to use the same rendering engine

Yeah, I don't know, time will tell On Apple's positioning After the floodgates kind of Have opened, because at a certain point You're just holding back the flood You know Once you get a break in the dam It's just a matter of time And it's kind of a fool's errand To try to stop it But I think they still have a pretty strong stranglehold On the market Especially outside of EU countries And so I don't expect it to change too much Unless The United States legislature Follows suit And I think our Market makers have proven themselves Across the board to be highly incompetent In regards to many topics And especially technology So I don't trust

It's a series of tubes It's a series of tubes Let's end this segment here With a congrats then Congrats to Andreas Congrats to Chris for seeing that vision Congrats to Andreas Getting through what you went through To get to Serenity OS and then ultimately Ladybird On this new trajectory So stoked for you by way of just hearing your story And talking to you one time on a podcast I'm excited So congrats to both of you guys Doing this new mission, this new initiative And to anyone that is like So excited about it that they start to Personally get involved in whatever way They want to, whether it's a user Whether it's a developer, contributor Community, whatever Sponsor There you go What is it? Ladybird.org Too easy

It's just too easy Alright back to some bad news Polyfill, supply chain attack Hits 100,000 Plus sites, this one has made The news a few times and so It's not exactly new news But I wanted to bounce off You what I said on Monday On Chainsaw News And get your take on it because In light of this, which as for those of you who didn't Hear this news, there is a JavaScript library called polyfill.js It provides As is the name, some polyfills For features that don't exist in older browsers It was served up via A CDN that the polyfill People set up very kindly CDN.polyfill.js Which I'm sure served Tons of bandwidth and traffic For many years, probably free Of charge, sponsored by Subsidized by whoever it is that Was putting out the open source And eventually got sold to A malicious company The domain got sold polyfill.js And so they set up a CDN At the same address That did some nefarious things And so this is kind of your Rug pull not cool, you know Situation, different kind of rug pull Not an open source rug pull Like a domain rug pull Super not cool And so A lot of A lot of people have been trying to react Like I said It hit 100,000 plus websites Including some pretty big ones Who were using that particular Asset And I said this in yesterday's Or Monday's news I said yesterday's best practice are Today's malpractice Which is kind of interesting like Everybody pretty much said You should be loaded off of a CDN because It's faster than yours, it's closer to them than yours You know you have HTTP pipelining With separate domains so it's faster In loading as well It's easier because you don't have to pay for bandwidth Like there's like 17 reasons why It was a best practice to just load Your JavaScript, your third party JavaScript Especially like jQuery And jQuery UI and React Like all these things from a CDN And not from your own domain Like standard operating procedure For many years And here we see some Serious I guess Myopism, I don't know, short sightedness On that Is like well when you don't have Control over everything Things change and not always For the better And so that goes from Best practice to malpractice And then I started thinking about Jeff Bezos Regret minimization framework I'm not sure if you've heard about that His decision making process When faced with two choices His framework is Make the choice that minimizes Your potential regret And so if you're going to go left or right Think about which one you might regret the most And do the other one Minimize the regret And I said maybe it's time To have a dependency Minimization Framework, I don't want to be Not invented here, zealot But dang It sure seems like we're getting bit often By our supply chain So maybe if we limit that supply as much as possible That's a framework that we should be Operating under, your thoughts

Okay so I want to pause for a second And just Lean into your copywriting If you don't mind

Okay, I'm a little nervous

Yesterday's best practice Are today's malpractice

That's yours, right?

I mean, just dude, bravo That's phenomenal Writing right there, that's how you know That you've fine tuned Repeated, made easy As you've said, by doing something over and over To make it easier That's an art right there, writing that line Right there alone is why you listen to Change Love News, and if you don't You're wrong, okay?

Well let me say Everything's a remix, of course Okay, I'm sure it is And when I thought of that phrase

That phraseology

I was referring back to Chris Brando's You call it tech debt, I call it malpractice And then I realized that best practice Rhymes with malpractice And I was like, you're just changing the front And so I giggled and I wrote it down So you know, shout out to him

That's how it is

Take the praise, man, that's good stuff there Well thank you, I'll take a moment to appreciate that compliment

Okay, that moment has passed, now let's dig in

Okay

I like the idea of the supply chain There's a reason why the supply chain exists What I don't like is how it's being weaponized Against us And I think there Is now an opportunity And I don't really want to mention one more sponsor But Feross is a friend first Before he's a sponsor And I think there's Like Feross is in a blue ocean sort of scenario When it comes to The open source supply chain In regards to dependencies This would have not have stopped This particular best practice term Malpractice, as you so eloquently Wrote But I wonder I don't think we should be linking to CDNs I think that practice is dead I'm going to let that one go However, I don't want your sentiment What you had said there was I guess the vulnerabilities we have with our supply chain There's a reason why open source won There's a reason why we lean on other people's Amazing code, there's a reason why For all those reasons, there's reasons I'm going to say reasons 17 more times So I would prefer Folks to lean in like Feross Has in his particular niche Which was JavaScript web development And dependencies And now it's transcended simply NPM to All the others There's like 4 of them in the list now That they support when it comes to dependencies I'd like to see better security tooling That aids a developer Does that shift left Versus Being like nah, third party Not cool, rug pull Not cool, super not cool I would like to have more Security tooling in there that's for developers And developer focused And doesn't Become this I hate to use the word like in there Doesn't become this signal versus noise Issue where you're just getting alerted To things That don't matter We talked about this recently on Securing GitHub with Jacob The priest And so I think my stance is really like this sucks That definitely, like linking out the third party CDNs, that's dead to me Based on this for sure, because you can't trust the domain ownership

Anymore, right? You can just download that file and re-host it yourself And you're just free from this particular problem

Gosh yes, and CDNs are Apparently a pipe dream And potentially a download dozen

Yeah exactly, I mean we replace them ourselves Potentially, yeah

So I think that's even why I asked you I think in the post show, like is there a product here For this pipe dream, so that's the Y'all that's a reference to the last Cheesecake and Friends episode 50 So go back a clip, a click A clip, an episode, whatever Or several if you're in the master feed And listen to that because we've had this pipe dream And I've been pushing back against it I'm like minimizing how much software We develop and manage, I'm trying to And y'all are trying to create more in that Case, but hey, whatever I get it, so if there's CDNs everywhere This practice is dead, but I want I would prefer that the future Be okay, who has got a security Mind and can help us Not allow attackers To leverage the supply chain, of any Supply chain, whether it's a CDN or a dependency Tree or transient dependencies Or whatever it might be Let's put some good tooling in there That at least surfaces, and I think Thus far, back to Faraz And socket.dev, I'm so Stoked for him, I think what they're doing is truly Helping applications Be better, it's truly helping developers not Feel like, oh my gosh, I need to Build a new feature, and so I go out there And I find things that are trusted in the Marketplace, and I Randomly do the wrong type of thing, and I Install the thing that I'm owned, or whatever Might happen, is you're building this Thing on, there hasn't been much out There, aside from you literally Having to dig through, has The core contributors changed, has the Code been rewritten Basically from scratch recently, has there Been this slow burn Of a social engineering against Somebody, we as individual Developers just don't have the Patience nor the time to Do that, we need tooling And that would be where I would welcome AI to help us, that's Pattern matching is amazing features for Summarization basically In that kind of scenario, that's Where I would love people to lean in, so if you're If you go back to the Bell curve that's going down And you find yourself in a position where You've got some Knowledge and security, and you see areas Of the supply chain that is under attack And no one's solving the problem, or there's A team that's small or disparate solving The problem, they need more resources, maybe Step in there, and maybe there's an opportunity to create Something brand new, like Frosted That begins to solve that Problem, because our supply chain Needs to be secured, and it won't be Unless it is secured, and it Can't be unless it's secured, there you go

That's my two cents. I think that's a solid take I think I'm more Thinking like, make the rug as small as Possible, you know, so it can't get pulled And you're thinking, let's lock that Rug down, because that's a valuable rug and it was Somebody put a lot of work into it and it's Better than making your own rug And I think that you can probably Happily deploy both Strategies, I'm not saying never Use third party code, or I mean, look at our, go look at our Website and see how many dependencies We have, and I agree with you That security Tooling may be a very Good avenue, and I Also agree with you that this particular practice should Just be dead, like if you're listening To this and you have JavaScript files that are Loading from a third party CDN that you Don't control, just Stop listening, pause it, go download Those files, you know And re-upload them to something that's Inside your control, and just sleep better At night, knowing that this can't happen to you This particular threat vector There's just no reason for it But I still think that we could individually And on our teams, deploy A dependency minimization Framework, and just Reduce the size of that rug Just in case it gets pulled, man Because there are Real threats that are unmitigated And yes, I think That the path forward includes Companies like Socket, Frost's Company that this is another Non-sponsor mention In the show

They may actually sponsor this episode, I don't even know It may be a sponsor, every time you say that

It happens, with our one password one

They are our current sponsor, and it might happen So if it does, I don't No, let me actually check the sponsor list real quick

So this happened actually on our recent Episode with Justin Searles talking about The Apple keynote And you said, we talked About one password, and are they getting Sherlocked And what's going to happen with them And you're like, they might even sponsor this episode And they literally sponsored That segment, which we Just had fun with it, we put a non-sponsored

Portion, by proxy, they were sponsoring As a mid-roll, and we placed Them there because it made the most sense to put Them in that mid-roll, because it didn't make sense to skip the mid-roll And let them come later, it just, it was more On point to like literally land it there

Yeah, it was kind of funnier that way, we had a non-sponsored And we had a sponsored

I have confirmed that Socket is not a sponsor this week On these episodes, however, they may be a sponsor Let me check on other shows

Sure, well that's going to happen

And they're a sponsor of JS Party this week, so if you Listen to JS Party this week, you will hear Kind of what I've been talking about Like, these ad-spots Can we just pause for a second and like Give me a little praise, do you mind Jared? Let's do it. Can I self-praise you? Yeah man, go for it Maybe you can praise me, I don't know Like, I just love producing our ad-spots with our Sponsors, really, I just love digging in because I do Learn their story, in a lot of cases These interviews I do with folks Are very much like a literal podcast And you and I have hypothesized How we can like turn that Into additional content But they're not always Like clean content, some of it's Coaching, it's a lot of it's Stuff in there so it doesn't always fit well So it's not a repeatable thing What is repeatable is what I Get out of them Is I want to know why people Should use it, why does it exist Who cares? Who's getting value from it? And I'm asking from various questions From that lens, and so I did this with Feras, like Feras, okay You've got these things out there Tell me, what's happening here? And he just He just leans in, and so As doing these ad spots, I learn a lot More, and to some degree Become more, way more Bullish, or way less bullish On these folks, you know? So if You see somebody come through The system, let's just say And they go away, it's either because They didn't get value, or I didn't think They really made sense for us long term So it's one of those two things, and the Don't get value thing does happen if we're not speaking To an audience they care about, totally get it You shouldn't waste your money or spend your money However, these ad spots to me are like Almost just as hard as producing One more podcast, because I'm meeting with Multiple people in the week, having deep Conversations with them, and distilling that down Into a minute or two, and I've just been Enjoying the process a lot, and this one For Feras you'll hear, or this one You'll hear from Feras on Sockit On Friday, on GS Party Is an example of that

Well I would agree with you I truly enjoy them Of course, when I'm listening to our shows I'm listening for QA purposes, also for Clipping purposes, so a lot of what I'm doing Is for speed, and so yes, I will skip Our own sponsorships, but sometimes I'm mowing, I'm driving I'm not in a skipping position And I will listen, and I'll say You know what, this is thinking good This is like, it's almost like a Mini little podcast right there inside the podcast And so, of course if you Don't like our ads, there is an option for you If you like our shows, but not Adam's ads First of all, how dare you, how dare you, but secondly Go ahead and skip them changelog.com slash plus plus It is better, I've heard

It's better What's up friends, this episode Is brought to you by our friends at Neon On demand scalability Bottomless storage And database branching Co-founder and CEO of Neon, so Nikita one thing I'm a firm Believer in is when you make a product Give them what they want And one thing I know is developers Want Postgres, they want it managed And they want it serverless So, you're on the front lines, tell me what you hear From developers, what do you hear from developers about Postgres Managed and being serverless

So what we hear from developers Is the first part resonates Absolutely, they want Postgres, they want it managed The serverless bit is 100% resonating with What people want, they sometimes Are skeptical like, is my Workload going to run well on your Serverless offering, are you going to charge me 10 times as much for serverless that I'm Getting for provision, those are like The skepticism that we're seeing and then People are trying and they see that The bill arriving at the end of the month and like Whoa, this is strictly better, the other Thing that is resonating Incredibly well is Participating in the software development Lifecycle, what that means is You use databases In two modes, one mode is You're running your app and the other mode Is you're building your app And then you go and switch between the two all The time because you are You know, you're deploying All the time and there is a Specific, you know Part when you're just like building out your application From 0 to 1 And then you push the application into production And then they keep iterating on the application What databases on Amazon such as RDS And Aurora and other hyperscalers Are pretty good at Is running the app, they've been Added for a while, they've Learned how to be reliable Over time and they run Massive fleets right now like Aurora and RDS run massive fleets Of databases, so they're pretty good at It, now they're not Serverless, at least they're not serverless by And by default, Aurora has a serverless Offering, it doesn't scale to 0 Neon does, but that's really the difference But they have no say In the software development life cycle So when you think about What a modern deploy to Production looks like, it's typically Some sort of tie-in into GitHub Right, you're creating a branch And then you're developing your feature And then you're sending a PR And then that goes through a pipeline And then you're on GitHub actions Or you're running GitLab for CICD And eventually This whole thing drops into A deploy into production So databases are terrible at this today And Neon is charging Full speed into Participating in the software development life cycle World, what that looks like Is Neon supports branches So that's the enabling feature Git supports branches, Neon Supports branches, internally Because we built Neon, we built our Own proprietary And what I mean by proprietary is Built in-house, the technology is actually Open source, but it's built in-house To support Copy and write branching for The Postgres database, and we run and Manage that storage subsystem ourselves In the cloud, anybody can read it It's all in GitHub under Neon database repo, and it's quite Popular, there are over 10,000 stars on it And stuff like that, this is the enabling Technology, it supports branches The moment it supports branches It's trivial to take your production environment And clone it, and now you have a developer Environment, and because it's serverless You're not cloning something That costs you a lot of money And imagining for a second that Every developer cloned something That costs you a lot of money in a large team That is unthinkable, right? Because you will have 100 copies Of a very expensive production database But because it is copy and write, and compute is Scalable, so now 100 copies That you're not using, you're only using them for Development, they actually don't cost you that much And so now you can arrive into the world Where your database Participates in the software development Lifecycle, and every developer Can have a copy of your Production environment for their testing For their feature development We're getting a lot of feature requests by the way there People want to merge this data Or at least schema backing into production People want to mask PII data People want to reset branches To a particular point in time Of the parent branch or the production branch Or the current point in time Like against the head of that branch And we're super excited about this We're super excited, we're super optimistic All our top customers use branches every day I think it's what makes Neon modern It turns a database into a URL And it turns that URL To a similar URL to that of GitHub You can send this URL to a friend You can branch it You can create a preview environment You can have DevTest staging And you'll live in this iterative mode Of building applications Okay, go to

neon.tech to learn more And get started Get on demand scalability Bottomless storage And data branching

One more time, that's neon.tech Well, piling on I like this one, should we play the pile on song

We're all saying the same thing It's a pile on

Piling on to this CDN issue This third party Hot linking Basically that's what it is, right You're hot linking to somebody's JavaScript If you hot link to polyfill.js You get the traditional Goatsy Only worse If you don't know what Goatsy is, don't go Google Don't go Google that, but if you know what it is You know what I'm talking about Piling on is Alex Lazar Writing at Leetsoftware.com You might like this one Adam The future is self hosted Alex thinks the future is self hosted And in light of me saying Go take down your third party JavaScript loading and self host it I don't know man, maybe the future Is self hosted This is what Alex says A few points He says privacy is baked in This is if you're self hosted The pricing is simple It's distributed by design Actually that one might take some unpacking And it's easy in 2024 So He thinks the future is self hosted Those are four reasons that I can unpack The full paragraphs if you like And then he goes on to ask what's stopping us Complacency, etc, etc Trying to describe why we don't self host But what do you think about this response To the supply chain It's like, well use the supply chain But just self host it yourself

It's redundant, but still If I had this headline I would write the same headline But I would add parentheses to it And I would add the words For some Because when he says In the intro Let's first praise it, awesome I think it is a great idea, but I still agree that it's for some And this is why Because when he describes self hosting being easy in 2024 In the very first sentence Docker is mentioned You go find somebody who cares about their privacy As a lay person Who is not really into tech They use tech, they're users of tech They buy products They're generally Not savvy with Docker. Does that mean they can't Use it? No, because then you can build Another abstraction layer on top of that And I think TrueNAS Is a version of that kind of abstraction I was using TrueNAS recently Because I got this test unit from them that I'm testing out Which I think is just amazing It's amazing hardware by the way And amazing software But at the same time this is designed for A nerd And that's not a bad thing It's just not designed for This headline, the future is self hosted Because I think it is, but I think for some Because if I wanted to On my 10 gigabit network Put my raspberry pi, which will not be 10 gigabit I don't even know if the RPi 5 Is 2.5 I can host my own JavaScript files Be my own single note CDN Is that going to scale? I mean I don't know Because then you've got this personal ISP What is self hosted? Can you get your own colo space at a data center?

That's what I'm thinking over here while you talk

Tim Stewart, aka TechnoTim Did this recently, he moved a lot of his stack His home lab stack A large portion is In a colo data center Is that home lab anymore? I mean yeah I love Tim, he's amazing And he's doing it for exploration So it's not like he's trying to extend the idea Of home lab, like this is home lab The future is self hosted is home lab Or some version of it, like I agree with it I want that to be the case I think there needs to be this marriage between Available hardware and available software That doesn't require The end user to know or understand Docker, it should not deploy Kubernetes And use helm charts That's just too nerdy So I agree with it For some, for now I think in the future though there is an opportunity to build Some software and some hardware that marries each other together It says put this in your home And here's a UI that anybody can pretty much use But back to the supply chain That's an attack vector And it needs to leverage The open source supply chain in wise ways They should be using some of our sponsors To secure themselves So yeah, I like the idea Long story short

Yeah I agree, I think it is difficult To define exactly what self hosted means And what the audience Is of this particular Thought You're self hosting your business in your house Is this your self hosting Your JavaScript files On S3 I mean what exactly does he mean by self hosting And I think At the consumer level, and it's a completely different conversation We're talking about businesses, consumers Developers Et cetera, home labbers I think when it comes to consumer tech And I know that Nextcloud For instance, does a lot of this stuff But I remember The good old Apple What was Apple's router called? Airport Apple Airport Extreme That thing was awesome, right? They abandoned that whole market But that thing was awesome I remember when they first announced iCloud And they changed kind of the orientation Of what they saw your Computer set up to be, where it used to be like Here's your desktop And that was like the source of truth And maybe you have a laptop, maybe not But like this computer in your house was the source of truth And then they, this is even back in the jobs era They inverted that and they're like no the cloud Is the source of truth And your machines are going to sink to the cloud And it took them a long time to deliver On that because iCloud was terrible For years, it's actually gotten to be Pretty reliable now, but I remember when they first announced that, I was like I feel like that sucks compared to Making like an airport extreme In your house With some sort of hard drives and stuff Like a Nextcloud, like your own personal cloud In your house That seemed to me like that was a cool future Which is self hosted cloud basically Right? And I know like companies like Nextcloud, which also has open source Stuff going on, it's open core I believe Have done a lot of that work But they haven't brought it to the masses Is the future actually self hosted? I think it's going to be like If Apple had gone that direction Then I think for consumers I think the future could have been self hosted I think that would be a better place for your cloud to live Than on Apple servers But obviously it didn't go that route So yeah, I guess my My thoughts all revolve around Who are we talking about? In what context? What does self hosted mean? And um I do not think the future of web development And running Servers is self hosted Unless by that you mean self managed Somewhere else Cause I don't know, I'm not going to stand up a Rack in the closet And host our business off of it Myself

I like the idea of this thought being Pushed forward I think it has merit But like you had said, Nextcloud I believe This part is being built for mostly nerds Not quite fully nerds but mostly nerds I agree with More sentiment share which was I'll paraphrase cause I'm not going to read it exactly You know, reducing Hardware costs, long term Costs, etc I think having privacy Is kind of to some degree there Because you can still have like non VPN Traffic or non SSL traffic Happening So like even then you've got to like become A bit of an expert on that stuff too You may choose a Networking system that Aids you in that but doesn't remove it completely But then it also puts all the ownership On you And then you multiply that by everybody Who's self hosts And you got a lot of people He does say there are billions in quotes There are billions of people in the world Tens of millions of them turn 18 every year And they all need software End quote I don't have an 18 year old Jared, I have a 20 year old And she is not at all Interested in purchasing Hardware and self hosting anything whatsoever

Right

And I know you have children that are close To that age, not quite that age So that's an up and coming Milestone for you Maybe you can share it, is that even on your daughter's Radar that would even be like She doesn't want to self host anything

That's why I say for some

Yeah, I don't I don't, as much as I want to believe this I think the words for some could have been in there Or maybe for nerds, maybe just for nerds Because for nerds, yeah I think self hosting is here You hop into, okay here's an invitation changelog.com Slash community, hop in our home lab channel There was some cool stuff Recently shared by that Colin Dean And in terms of his Migration to different unified Hardware, and I love that You know we just like chatted quickly yesterday I threw like a couple of liners out there But there is a home lab channel In our Slack community And if you disagree with me Or agree in some cases But mostly disagree Or even agree, hop into Or disagree Whatever your opinion is If you have an opinion, share it in there Or even in Maine, but it's probably more better Or better applied In the home lab channel Because it's kind of like a synonym for Self hosted, home lab is self hosted And that's your great invitation Hang your hat here, you're welcome, it's free It's a precursor In my eyes to changelog++ Or just getting a little closer To the free changelog Metal, and yeah I want this to be true Though, so I'm like an advocate for this becoming True, I just don't think it's going to come true It requires decent Hardware that's made well That's affordable And mostly user friendly As an interface That does all the techie Docker, Kubernetes, whatever However this maps out in the future But it needs to be non nerd Only in my opinion

I think that's fair Should we call it a show?

Well that's it for me You came up with a bunch of good topics Just by way of what you do One more time, okay Give it up for yesterday's best practice Our today's now practice Phenomenal writing Jared And one more nod to changelog.com slash news And subscribing, listening And paying attention to Actually staying up to date With what's happening By listening to changelog news Or reading changelog news

Every Monday, that's awesome Very good, well by the way Many, many, many, many Kaizen, did you notice I changed the play button On our changelog news home page And I made, I put the word play underneath it

I did notice I liked And I pushed

And I was happy I was very happy Constantly improving, I don't know, I was like maybe this is a little bit Draws your eye, I think the green draws your eye more than the white Alright, there you go We'll save that for Kaizen 16 which will be coming Not so soon, but eventually Soon enough, soon enough On our regular two and a half month cadence Alright, well that's changelog and friends For this week I guess

Now we just say bye friends

Bye friends Alright friends, that is all we have For this July 4th week of developer pods If you made it this far You're a trooper And if you're still hungry for more There is a bonus 15 minutes coming up For changelog plus plus ears only Happy Independence Day To all of our fellow Americans And to everyone around the world Some of the same freedoms that Adam and I do We are truly blessed To get to make these shows for you And we hope they're a blessing in your life as well We couldn't do it without our partners Thanks again to Fly.io To Breakmaster Cylinder To 1Password, Neon, and Sentry Don't forget, code changelog Saves you 100 bucks when you sign up For a Sentry team plan Use it or lose it Next week on the changelog, news on Monday Paul Cobblestone from Supabase On Wednesday And we were working on something for Friday But we could use some fresh ideas Please do submit episode requests At changelog.com slash request We'd love your help on this Have a great weekend Leave us a 5 star review if you haven't already And let's talk again real soon